push button ignition/horn

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bikesndbugs
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:40 am

new idea so what if i ran a spdt relay and had the horn on the 87a and the starter on 87 and run the button before the relay. run a standard off on switch to the relay so then you have a relay to the horn and to the starter for good amperage. all i would have to find in a push button that handles a good amount of amperage. Also the stock ignition has the 2 click thing like on power on 2 is starter would i have to incorporate it somehow or what does that even do i have no radio and as long as everything is off and the button isn't pressed there is no draw so battery wont go dead right?
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:01 pm

totally forgot about the shut off i was completely wrapped with the starter and such. Would i just find the wire on the stock ignition switch and run it to an on off switch where would that tie in?
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:33 am

That is more or less what I was talking about. On you keyed ignition switch there should be some inbossed or printed lettering that tells you what reached post does. There should be power in post, an accessory post and if the switch has a start position option there should be a start marking. I think you said there was a separate start button so the switch either doesn't have the extra start post, it isn't used or it might be defective. Run a wire from the ACC post to a single action switch then to the horn or you could wire the horn hot and switch the ground side if the horn if it requires a separate ground wire.

Don't forget to protect the horn circuit too.

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:39 am

bikesndbugs wrote:...The relay creates better flow right? and thicker wire = better flow...
The primary purpose of using a relay is to allow the wires which have to pass a lot of current to be shorter, so they have less resistance to current flow - where you locate the relay matters too.

Consider the starter motor. It draws a lot of current (why jumper cables have to be big, and not just lamp cord). If it were operated directly, you'd need wires the size of a garden hose and a Frankenstein switch on the dash.

Enter the starter solenoid - it's just a big relay that has contacts stout enough the handle the starter motor current, controlled by the "start" contacts of the ignition switch. It still draws a substantial current, say 30 amps, but smaller wire and a "lighter" switch are adequate to operate the solenoid compared to the first scenario.

Many cars take this concept one step further, by using a small relay controlled by the ignition/start switch to operate the solenoid. As wiring ages and resistance builds up, a relay is sometimes added to a VW too. If it were to be placed up front it wouldn't help, though - to be effective, it needs to be physically located near the battery & starter and connected with wires of sufficient gauge, no longer than necessary to reach. This relieves the original wiring (and the ignition switch) of having to pass the ~30 amps - now all they have to handle is the <1 amp that the relay takes to operate, so even if they've deteriorated since new they're still more than adequate for the new "light duty".

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:46 pm

im gonna use the stock wiring to the ignition switch and just swap it to push button. When i was thinking about how to do it i happened to leave out the switch for power like when the key when it clicks for the first time. How would i incorporate that?
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:40 pm

Not understanding the question. Perhaps if you just start over and describe what you want to accomplish again.

What year is the car, by the way?

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:46 pm

To know the year is a good idea but... to short cut, if I understand what you want to do, I wouldn't advise it especially if your bug has an ani theft style steering column and for several other reasons.

It's been a long time since I got into this myself but as I remember the way it works is there is a start circuit for starting then went the motor starts you and you let off from the start position on your switch your car then reverts to a run circuit. If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected :twisted: . The circuits are very different in some ways. I'm not going to get into all that right now but it is important on how things work.

On a keyed single run circuit the starter is separate button, it may or may be not involved with the ignition key. In ways it can be a more complicated. There can be advantages to either way. An example might be bumping the engine with the ignition key off.

If your wiring is stock VW wiring and is in good shape then I would recommend, for a novice, to get a good manual with wiring diagrams and learn to read them so you can work with them. It's not hard to learn especially with the two VW guys have at home plus some of us here.

It does take a lot of concentration when following all those lines running here and there seemingly helter skelter but there is a reason for it all. Once you learn how things work and why then you can start to modify if or when needed.

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:06 pm

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:To know the year is a good idea but...
I ask because of the difference in the way the headlamps and some accessory loads receive power on `71-up VWs with the "X" terminal ignition and headlamp switches. Could be relevant here...

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:38 pm

Ok i have a 68 bug the ignition switch currently hangs down and slaps you in the leg on corners because it is just dangling down, So i wanna get rid of it. I want to completely eliminate the key so id need a switch for the power and for the starter(push button). Using the spdt relay i could make the button double as a horn as mine does not work. The switch from horn to starter will be hidden to work as a sort of security switch so the horn honks unless you know about the switch. I got the starter and horn figured out i just happened to forget the power switch(first click on ignition switch. now my problem is where id put that and would the horn work with it off? or just wire it seperatly so the horn and starter are completely separate from the running lights. ill add a picture of a drawn diagram soon. everything currently works excluding the horn so im just gonna be tapping into/ modifying the current system.
Basiscally eliminate the key how would i do that so i hit switch for running then use the button to go to solenoid to run starter motor.
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:33 pm

Marc, I agree, that is why I said it was a good idea to know the year of the car. I was jumping ahead which is not always a good idea.

bikesndbugs, it can be done but it rages from it is difficult to no problem. The ignition switch provides power to the fuse block plus other things (I looked in my book and the ignition switch is missing in the wiring diagram for a '68-'69 bug but it is shown in the Ghia for the same year range) or it may do many different other things depending on how it was wired... assuming it is not stock wired.

I have been doing too many "from scratch" wiring jobs on sand toys where I can wire it the way I want and not use the VW way of doing things.

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:54 pm

OK, I guess I missed where it was decided to eliminate the key altogether.
First question I have is, why is there not a stock switch in the steering column? To me it would make more sense to put the time & effort into restoring things to stock than to screw around with this home-brew setup, but let's continue.

The simplest circuit I can envision requires a SPST toggle for the ignition, a SPDT to select either the starter or the "alarm" horn that will sound if someone hits the starter button with the horn selected, and a relay for the horn so that it will also sound using the steering-wheel horn button with the key on. It should also have an inline fuseholder for the power going to the horn from the SPDT switch. With this setup, the pushbutton would NOT serve as a horn button once you'd flipped the SPDT switch over to the solenoid when you start the car, and you should leave it there to simplify restarting if you should stall in traffic - so you'll need to make the steering wheel horn button functional (or add another pushbutton) for the horn to be operational while driving.

The starter would work (when selected) regardless of whether the ignition switch was off or on. Not good if you ever leave children in the car, if in gear the car might crash into something when the button's pushed.

You would locate the SPST ignition switch where it would be readily accessible to switch the engine off in a hurry, so it would probably be quite visible.
The SPDT switch should be hidden where it won't be discovered by someone attempting to steal the car.
The pushbutton could be anywhere within reach from the driver's seat, ideally far enough away from the SPDT switch that no one recognizes that they are related, or the whole exercise would be pointless.

When someone pushes the start button with the SPDT switch selected to the horn, it will make the horn sound AND backfeed power to the ignition circuit - the warning lights on the dash would come on and accessories would be enabled, just as though the SPDT ignition switch had been turned on...so holding the button would in effect "hot-wire" the car, but the horn would be sounding. This would be considered a flaw (you've made it easy to bump-start the car, if the thief just unplugs the horn) EXCEPT if you're just using a toggle for ignition (no key) that's already possible to do without needing to unplug the horn, so it's not really reducing the security any.

That's the simplest circuit I can come up with and it still sounds to me like more hassle than just fixing it properly would be.

Here's the schematic for the wiring of a `68 Beetle. Click on the image to enlarge it. http://vintagebus.com/wiring/bug-68+69.jpg
Last edited by Marc on Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:05 pm

What MOST people do if they have a steering column which has serious issues that complicate getting a stock ignition switch mounted is to simply wire in a "universal" switch so a key is required.
Weak point of these is that you have to make a big hole in the dash to mount them, or if you make a bracket to hang the switch below the dash the wires are exposed in back making it easy to hot-wire...bend up some sheetmetal to build a box around it to make that more difficult.
http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-85936-Cond ... 1_1&sr=8-1

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:27 pm

why not just go to a corect key? idk i like doing stuff different.
the reason it isnt mounted now is because its the wrong switch i believe its the pre 67
what would i have to do to go keyless? power switch then button for starter? my friend says i need a fuel pump switch but does the ignition switch have it now? i dont think it does . I like hassle it makes for good learning experiences. the spdt would be hidden, the button where the heater knobs go and power switch next to it
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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:57 pm

Whoof, you have a lot more going on than you started with. Electric fuel pump, anything else? My first advice would be to get a manual with wiring diagrams. I think you might be in need of the wiring diagram. I think I recommended you to start a build book... I do recommend doing it now. Since you are changing things I think I would keep a record. It would also give you a place to doodle up your wiring changes.

I recommend doing your changes via the fuse block if you can or add another one. As far as hiding switches anything, including the glove box, have been used. A 90 degree angle mounted below the dash kind of like gauges have been used and should be readally available for cheap. I've even seen combination gauge and switch mounts available. Building an electrical system makes the car easier to steal and remember if there was a problem there might be some culpability involved... not good!

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Re: push button ignition/horn

Post by bikesndbugs » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:53 pm

nvm not electric fuel pump i was being stupid and i found the wiring diagram of a the starter system and the whole bug i explained it more complicated than it was also thinking momentary switch for the swap from horn to starter so hold the button and start so there is never the issue of forgetting to swap it back over.
Back to simplicity need switch for power button for starter and switch for swap to horn
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