My first type4, probably 2056

This is the place to discuss, or get help with any of your Type 4 questions.

Moderator: Type 4 Unleashed

Post Reply
TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:19 am

This is how I have my trigger wheel installed now (not my engine, but I got same pulley and trigger wheel). I will not install the trigger wheel like this on the type4, I want to use the hub as a fixation point. But I want to install in on the same side if it does not fit behind the pulley.
DSCF4056_small.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21388
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:32 am

...any setup that works for sequential allows batch/waste spark...
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:05 am

Goodies arrived from Jakob @GetBackOnTrack: 1.7l heads with 42x36mm valves, ported, double springs, 1.7l rockers with 8mm adjuster screws and solid spacers, Webcam 163/86B and wheel, Scat lube-a-lobe lifters, 96mm cylinders, bearings. At the end of the month pistons will also arrive.
Jakob advised not to change the rod bolts to ARP, from his point of view they are not needed for my application. I'll come back later on with technical details I discussed with Xellex and Jakob (he's also here on the forum, with a 2078cc type4).
Clipboard01.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:51 pm

Warning, long post.
I think I clarified some technical topics, I would like to summarize:
1. I will use NPT threaded plugs for the oil galleys. I will buy them from CSP, because I did not find them locally at the hardware/hydraulics/air stores.
2. I will not install ARP bolts.
3. I will mount the oil filter on the original mount and use an oil adapter in place of the cooler location to route the oil lines to the oil cooler mounted in the fan shroud. I will use push-on fittings and hose.
4. For the ITBs, I would use 42mm or 40mm, depending on what I find. Xellex has a larger set, 46 maybe, but I think these are too big. I have two options for mounting them: a) IDF pattern manifolds and top and bottom flanges to fix the ITBs at IDF spacing; I can use IDF filters in this case; b) Build my own intakes out of stainless steel pipe at the original spacing of the ITBs. I can use cone filters in this case. Pricewise, option b) is cheaper by ~160euros (the intake manifolds). I started to design the top and bottom flanges in CAD to send them for cutting.
filter-flange.jpg
intake-flange.jpg
5. Fuel hose will also be push-on, I read it is not really necessary to use AN fittings.
6. Trigger wheel is also in work, I will mount it to the rear of the car, not between pulley and case. I need to mock up the engine to measure exactly the position of the sensor, but I need to find some used bearings.

Next steps shall be: grind the crankshaft, line-bore the case, rebuild the connectiong rods, then make the first mock-up of the engine to measure deck height. After this, I shall order the next needed parts: NPT plugs, shims for cylinders, shims for endplay, gasket kit, oil adapter, fittings, oil pump, crank seals and maybe the intake manifolds.

I saw that both cylinder heads have a threaded hole near the spark plug (circled red). What was the original purpose of it? Can use those holes for CHT reading?
Clipboard02.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
sideshow
Posts: 3152
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:00 pm
Location: suth'ern oraygun yusa
Contact:

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by sideshow » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:07 am

TZepeSH wrote:.... I will use NPT threaded plugs for the oil galleys. I will buy them from CSP, because I did not find them locally at the hardware/hydraulics/air stores.....
Your do realize that NPT is found in countries that use that "National Pipe" standard? Availability and cost are good.

I assume (your profile is incomplete) you live somewhere that BSPT (British Standard Pipe Thread) is more common? Or tapered M thread, even O-ringed boss/copper crush straight pattern. So use one them.

This side of the planet uses NPT because it is cheap, not because it is the only way to clean and cap a galley.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:25 am

I live in Romania. NPT is used in plumbing more often than metric. Also hydraulic (oil) systems use NPT, and AN is common for air connections. But I did not find the type of buried plugs in stores I visited directly, they usually have some plugs that seal on surface and are made of cast iron. I found buried NPT plugs online, but because I need to order from CSP anyway, I will take everything from one place. The plugs are 3-5 euros each, same price on webshops in my country.

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:40 am

In the picture of the cylinder head bove, what was the purpose of that threaded hole on the original 1.7l head? I do not think it is EGR hole because it is a blind hole.
Can I use that for CHT measurement?

Now some questions on oil and fuel system. Maximum oil pressure I think is ~70PSI, and the fuel pressure shall be ~50PSI.
OIL: I remember reading in the Cali book that 3/8 NPT to 1/2 barbed fitting shall be used for oil. I use the type1 oil mount with type4 oil cooler in doghouse shroud. I want to be sure the oil hoses will not pop out of the barbed connector, maybe it's better to use the more expensive AN fittings? What size AN would be fine for oil lines, #8, #10?
FUEL: Same fear here: if I use barbed connectors, do they stand well to the FI pressure? I have two fuel lines in the chassis now (I thought at some point that the original one was plugged... it was the fuel tank), the original one (6mm?) and an 8mm line. I can use the 8mm as feed and the 6mm as return. Below fuel tank I have a low pressure pump to feed a swirl pot near the engine, then to fuel filter then to fuel pump. Up to here the pressure is low so I will use barbed fittings. The output of Bosch 044 FP is M12x1.5, so if I am to use AN fittings, what size shall I go to? #6 seems enough, but maybe #8? I will come back with measurements of the fuel lines of the original throttle bodies, when I receive them (VFR800 36mm ITBs).

User avatar
Clatter
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Clatter » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:39 pm

Hi,

That sender hole in the head is useful to signal the computer that the motor is cold, or not.
That's how the D and L-jet systems triggered cold start.
If you are going to use it as a CHT for a gauge, to get a meaningful reading, you will have to fudge it.
Only if the CHT sender ring is under the plug will you know the specific temp.
It has reportedly run 40-60'F cooler than under the plug if used with a ring sender.

WRT the rod bolts,
The biggest factor would be how you are going to drive it.
I know it's safe to use stock bolts in a bus, or other bigger motor that is treated well,
However,
If you don't trust yourself to NOT wail on it, drag race it, or otherwise misbehave 100% of the time,
Bolts are 'cheap' insurance.
Especially if you are going to be rebuilding the rods anyways..


IMHO, real threaded fittings can be a worthwhile spend on the fuel side of things.
Have had good luck with push-lock and oil..
Fire or failure.. take your pick.. LOL.
There are cheap enough versions out there if you look. Ebay?

just my $.02..
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

User avatar
raygreenwood
Posts: 11720
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:01 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by raygreenwood » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:05 pm

Some notes on fuel lines. By push on....do you mean standard fuel hose witn barbs.....or modern "push-lock" with nylon hose?

Either are excellent if used properly. Outside of racing in classes that require it.....I see "0" usefulness for AN fittings driven on the street. There is no benefit whatsoever.

In the US.....regular barbed and clamped, reinforced rubber fuel lines have their issues....because of the fuel blends we use. You must use properly rated (for alcohol blend) hose.....or there can be a short lifespan. And....by the way.....steel braid covered hoses used with AN fittings have the exact same issues.

There are EXCELLENT reasons that nearly 100% of all current fuel injected OEM applications use push lock nylon.
1. The nylons used (of which there are two main types).....have "0" issues with any known motor fuel including diesel, bio-diesel, alcohol blends etc.

2. They are good from arctic conditions to ambient of about 212°F.

3. They have a constant working pressure at 70°F of 500 psi. At around 150 F the working pressure is above 250 psi.

4. The o-ring fittings typically operate to 100K miles plus before needing an o-ing and clip change...simple and cheap.

I have been in the planning,stages for changing to all nylon except for some steel sections near hot areas and a few select alcohol rated rubber nipples. I have learned to heat form the nylon tubes where needed and have an operating method for inserting barbs where needed and I am just waiting to pressure test the joints.
Ray

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:05 am

Thank you for your replies. I will use the threaded hole for CLT input of Megasquirt and read the CHT under the plugs. I made a small circuit that allows me to read 4 CHT sensor in a serial manner: read cylinder1 for 1 second, pause 1 second, read cyl2 for 1 second, pause 1 second, etc and after cyl4 a 5 second pause, then restart. This is to use only one input of the Megasquirt.

On ARP bolts, my car is a daily driver: work, kid to kindergarten, 1-2000km trips. So I am not into drag racing, apart from the normal take-overs on curvy roads. I do not usually go over 5000rpm, this is why I don't really care about higher RPMs. Even though Webcam 494 would have been a more rational decision because it gives higher torque down low and have the peak HP at lower RPM, I still chose 163/86B just because I like the idea behind it very much: the split duration. And if I were to put dual springs also for 494, I chose what my heart told me.

On oil and fuel lines, I would invest in safety, I have a friend who almost burned his car due to a fuel line that came off... When I said push-on, I was refering to barbed conenction, braided lines, not the modern push-locks (quick-release) lines. I see that CSP has nylon pipes for sale, together with AN fittings. I will have to see what threads the fuel rails have to decide the AN size on fuel.
For oil system, I measured the oil cooler adapter (type1): 10mm oil holes, so I will plug them with 1/4 NPT, and the boss that must be drilled and tapped for the new connection (the 90degree bend of the oil passage in the adapter) is 21mm. 3/8 thread would be ~17.4mm, I hope it is safe with ~2mm per radius that remains. AN10 or AN8? AN8 seems enough, the ID of the tube is 0.44", OD is 1/2".

Gnasha
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:09 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Gnasha » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:50 am

Hi, I'm new to air cooled (KG 1974). Ive been following this post with some interest for some time now. I currently have a Plastic fuel filter and rubber hoses routing the fuel to the car. My intentions are to replace with copper pipework with flared ends, for the connection from frame/body to engine a flex hose.

Your comments would be appreciated in comparison to push/Barbed fittings.

Clonebug
Posts: 2753
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Clonebug » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:43 pm

Copper is usually not a good material to use due to it tending to work harden and then cracking when flexed.

The inexpensive steel brake line available makes good fuel line or you can get coated steel fuel line fairly easily.
I used brake line around the engine and just used short rubber hoses to connect between the framehorn and also the fuel pump.


The fuel filter should not be placed anywhere near the stock Solex carbs due to the weight and vibration possibly loosening the pressed in inlet fitting working loose and then fuel spraying over a hot engine.
I makes for a big fire and lots of tears......
Get some Fuel injection rated fuel line for the flex sections and use a FI clamp after pushing the hose on at least an inch and you will have no issues with anything.
It should be standard procedure to check everything on your VW since most likely you are the mechanic.
I take my buggy apart every winter to upgrade it but also to inspect everything to make sure I have no issues. That means checking wires, bolts, nuts and hoses for looseness and wear.
You don't have to go to that extreme but it pays to "pay" attention.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21388
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:39 pm

In locales where salt is used on the road they sell very corrosion resistant copper-nickel brake line that LOOKS like copper but isn't. Those are perfectly OK to use as well.

Put the fuel filter up front under the gas tank, the gas tank to chassis line should be 300mm at least.
The tank is designed to "pop up" in a frontal crash, the long line will stay connected.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:51 pm

I received some more parts: pistons and rings, connecting rod bearings and VFR800 throttle bodies.
20170315_195852.jpg
20170315_200002.jpg
20170315_200048.jpg
On Wednesday I'll take the crankshaft to the grinder. I'll also give him the connecting rods to change the bushings and ream them, and the 200mm flywheel to change the crown. Now it has a 6V crown (109 teeth).

I have to figure out a way to make a linkage on the throttle bodies. These throttle bodies open the opposite way to IDF, but something similar to a sync link (two pulleys and cable) shall be fine. I need to turn one of the shafts around to be able to mount the link wheels on one side. I guess I'll turn the shaft on the pair of bodies that originally did not have anything on them. One has the pulley on one side and the TPS on the other side, one has just a stop.
I'll also measure the fuel rails to see what reductions/adapters I need for AN fittings and make a plan for the fuel lines and oil lines. They seem to have M12x1.25 or M12x1.5 threads on the outside (I did measure just the diameter not the pitch). But I did not pull the existing couplers to see how they are mounted in the fuel rail, pressed or threaded.

I keep thinking to change the bolts to ARP, I have to discuss and see if the machinist can do it. I'm also considering to order Udo Becker or Thorsten Pieper tool steel type1 lifters and bushings, even if they are quite expensive. Now I have SCAT Lube-a-Lobe type4 lifters.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

TZepeSH
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 am

Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:10 pm

Crankshaft is back from grinder, now it is R1. I also received the connecting rods, pin bushings were changed and reamed to spec.
I need an advice on flywheel. The one that I have is 200mm but the ring gear was changed to 6V (109 teeth). I have some possibilities:
1. Use a 6V starter. I think it will be damaged fast. I need to change the bushing in the gearbox also.
2. Swap the starter gear from a 6V to a 12V.
3. Find a 12V flywheel with removable ring gear and swap on mine. Hard to find.
4. Machine off a ring gear off a normal 12V flywheel. I do not know who would do it around here, the guy who did the grinding on crank said he would not try.
5. Buy a conversion flywheel. A friend has two, but i question the quality. They are from cip1.
6. Buy a 215mm flywheel. Same friend has one. But there is no better clutch for this one, only for 200mm.
Which is better, 215 mm with stock cutch or 200m witnh KEP stage1?
Best I think would be to use my 200mm flywheel, genuine VW, with a KEP stage1. Opinions?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BugUgly and 3 guests