My draw through turbo

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

Moderator: seabeebuggy

Post Reply
User avatar
Dan Dryden
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:56 am
Location: Kent, England

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Dan Dryden » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:29 pm

I was going to ask the same question as petew. Are you running an oil thermostat? If not, you should do. 66*C is a little too low.

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Yes I have an oil thermostat witch opens at 82C
My turbo is a aireserch M10 with a .42 cold side and .36 hot and boost fine on my 1600. If cursing at 30 mpg in third and then I boot it the boost comes on straight away with no lag and at 6psi boost and just keeps increasing so I wouldn't say it's to bit at all. When cruising at 60moh in fourth and then just put your foot down a little to overify take it turbo instantly kicks in and gives 7psi boost and goes to 10 psi a second later. I've even had 14 psi out of it in third gear and under 4500rpm

Clonebug
Posts: 3343
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Clonebug » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:10 pm

That turbo should easily support 200-250 hp so it's not too small either.
I haven't found how many CFM's it supports but if I get bored I'll look a little harder. That will tell you exactly what you can get out of your engine if you use the RB Racing calculator and the amount of CFM's it will put out.
Too bad you can't log all your sensors and boost like we can on Megasquirt......the information you get is gold when it comes to tuning and getting hp out of a turbo.

Get some video and post it....I'd like to see how it pulls.
The Mobius Video player is dirt cheap and mounts just like a camera mount...it's easy to make a mount to clamp to the passenger seat or wherever and get video.
I have a Mobius but I now have a GoPro Hero 5 that I mounted on my buggy. The Wife got it for me for Christmas.
All my Dyno videos were done with the GoPro.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

madmike
Posts: 1378
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Atlanta,Michigan

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by madmike » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:50 am

Adam, That is not the best place for the sender ,, Try getting a sender that replaces the oil relief slotted plug VDO/Empi part # V323064 I find it much more accurate :wink: or the guy on thesamba that sells the one that goes in-line( T style)on the oil cooler , i use that one too :lol:

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:31 am

Ok I will move the oil temperature sensor and see what happens. It's pissing it down here today so not going to take it out but as soon as the weather improves I will take some videos

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:37 am

Am I going mad here?
Last night we was playing with the timing, now at 3250rpm @101Kpa I have a max timing of 30 degrees BTDC and a cruise timing of 35 BTDC @53Kpa, now before I had my ignition box pulling 1 degree per 1 psi boost down to 24 degrees at 6psi and that's it but last night I continued the retard curve of 1 degree per 1psi of boost down to 20 degrees BTDC @10 psi boost and the turbo is boosting better than ever and the engine just Continues to pull like mad. I thought based on the books I have is that the retard timing should be brought back to 24 degrees max?
Hope this makes sense?
PS I'm also moving the oil temperature sensor today so will let you know the out come

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:39 am

Well my oil temp sensor is not in the wrong place at all it is reading the same as when I put a prode down the dip stick tube. The problem was my thermostat it was jammed open and alway sending the oil through the second cooler. Now I've got that sorted the oil temp now rises to 80 degrees C and then the thermostat opens and sends the oil to the second cooler. At 85 degrees C the fan kicks in and you can watch the temp drop down to 82 degrees C and then the fan tuns of.
If this matters or not the engine had a good half hour run and then on my drive at idle I took these figures.

Clonebug
Posts: 3343
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Clonebug » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:53 am

advinnie wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:37 am
Am I going mad here?
Last night we was playing with the timing, now at 3250rpm @101Kpa I have a max timing of 30 degrees BTDC and a cruise timing of 35 BTDC @53Kpa, now before I had my ignition box pulling 1 degree per 1 psi boost down to 24 degrees at 6psi and that's it but last night I continued the retard curve of 1 degree per 1psi of boost down to 20 degrees BTDC @10 psi boost and the turbo is boosting better than ever and the engine just Continues to pull like mad. I thought based on the books I have is that the retard timing should be brought back to 24 degrees max?
Hope this makes sense?
PS I'm also moving the oil temperature sensor today so will let you know the out come
If you are talking about Turbomania you have to remember that book was written 20-30 years ago. While it was a fairly good read it is outdated in my opinion.
Turbos are more efficient, Gas is completely reformulated and a host of other things really make it just a book to pass some time away.

You are the Mechanic and the engineer.........It is up to you to figure out what the engine wants or needs...not just setting it up according to some book.
You lower the timing until you have no detonation....no more, no less. If you lower it to much you lose power and if too little you get a blown engine..
Too much is safe in my book.... a dyno will show a torque increase when adding timing.....until it pings of course.

It is a very fine line you have to run with a turbo engine.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:11 am

Yes thats the book.

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:58 am

Now I have some decent gauges fitted I can see what's going on with the pressure vs oil temp.
Now with out a war on oil starting up πŸ˜€ I'm using 10/40 mineral oil and have noticed that below 76 degrees C at idle I have 8/9 psi of oil pressure at idle( 900rpm), 15 psi @ 1000 rpm, 26 @ 2000, 38 psi @ 3000rpm BUT over 80 degrees C my idle pressure drops to 4/5 psi, 11 psi @ 1000, 21 psi @ 2000rpm and 32 psi at 3000rpm now these figures look ok but I'm a little worried about the idle oil pressure. Do you think I should set up to a 10/50 or 15/50 mineral oil ?
If I do that will increase the idle oil pressure but it will also increase the higher rpm oil pressure and I know if you go to thick on oil the pressure gets to high and over powers the oil cooler piston and the oil never goes through the stock cooler till its thined out enough / over heated and the pressure lowers. But I have no idea at what pressures all this happens?
I hope this makes sense?

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21888
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Piledriver » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:15 pm

4-5 psi at idle is perfectly normal, esp with the wonderful sloppy fit oil pumps available today.
(I have been pondering setting up a plating bath to build up the pump OD)

32 psi@3K//1K per thousand RPM trend is already possibly keeping the cooler bypassed at cruise RPM.
If you are still using the std oil cooler circuit for its intended purpose, that's a common scenario.

If you have a proper full flow with oil thermostat cooler setup, you should consider reworking the stock cooler to run off that circuit ala DTM, or eliminate it entirely.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:57 am

Well went on a two hour drive this morning and all went well πŸ˜€
At 70mph the oil temp was sitting at 108 degrees C but with seconds of slowing to just 65-68mph the oil temp dropped to 98-101 degrees C. I was at one point sitting at 80mph but the oil temp hit 112 degrees witch I think is a little hot?
Even at 112 C I still had 35 psi of oil pressure at 4000rpm and that oil pressure didn't drop until 3100 ish rpm so I'm guessing that at around 3100 rpm is where my oil pump is maxing out?
When I got home on the driveway the oil temp was 97 C and I still had 3-4 psi at idle (900-950) rpm and 9 psi @ 1000, 18 psi @ 2000rpm and 29 @ 3000 rpm.
I also hit 11.2 psi boost max at one point witch was niceπŸ˜€
But I must say sitting at 60mph in fourth cursing witch a manifold pressure of 53Kpa then putting your foot down instantly gives me 7psi boost and levels out at 10psi witch is what my waste gate is set to so not sure howmy computer registered 11.2 psi boost.
Any way the point of my drive to day was to get the car on a rolling road but when I got there they said there read out display was fucked so no power runs 😠 but they did do a mixture set up for me and an ignition check and detonation check the best they could with there machine display not working. Long story short they didn't touch the timing table they said they have never seen a table witch has been set up at home so close to perfect πŸ˜€ the only bit they did change was the idle timing witch they increased from my 10 BTDC to 15 degrees at 900rpm and kept the advance the same up to 1250 rpm before the advance started to kick in.
Now what they did do is the jets I was close but not close enough. I now have the following and the bug is now a joy to drive
Neddle- 250
Idles- 45F8 &50 F8
Mains- 135 & 145
Airs- 180
Emulsion-F11's
Vents-28mm
I'm now going to make my own water injection kit (not meth) using a washer bottle and pump and a dellorto 0.33 idle jet but I'm having issues getting it to mist I'm just getting g a fine jet instead. I will be placing the jet in the air filter hat. Any advice on how to get the water to mist when leaving the jet would be great.

Clonebug
Posts: 3343
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Clonebug » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:59 pm

You need a tiny nozzle and a high pressure pump to get a mist.
That jet you want to use will flood the engine or hydro lock it so be very careful.
You only want to inject about 100 cc's per minute max depending on boost and hp output.
You also need a solenoid to keep the engine from sucking water out of the tank during non boost driving.

Most Draw through systems don't use or need WI due to the cooling effect of the fuel going through the venturi of the carb and down the intake.

You don't need WI at 10 lbs boost either.
You would be better off adjusting timing to compensate if you find you are getting detonation.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

advinnie
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by advinnie » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 pm

I was thinking of using it as a safety barrier against detonation in the summer months. I've all ready broken one piston ring, cylinder and head due to detonation when I was running 14 psi boost and I don't want it to happen again. I'm now hitting 11 psi boost max so starting to get close to where I was when it all went wrong for me last time.
I'm now looking at this nozzle witch is a 85cc/min
http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/ind ... duct_id=47

So will the water injection not give me a larger safety margin in the hotter summer months?

Clonebug
Posts: 3343
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: My draw through turbo

Post by Clonebug » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:38 pm

advinnie wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 pm
I was thinking of using it as a safety barrier against detonation in the summer months. I've all ready broken one piston ring, cylinder and head due to detonation when I was running 14 psi boost and I don't want it to happen again. I'm now hitting 11 psi boost max so starting to get close to where I was when it all went wrong for me last time.
I'm now looking at this nozzle witch is a 85cc/min
http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/ind ... duct_id=47

So will the water injection not give me a larger safety margin in the hotter summer months?
Without knowing what your IAT's are at you are are just guessing at what the engine needs.

As I said...very few Draw Through systems use WI....that said, I don't know if you would get a benefit from it or not. Using just water is not going to be as beneficial as Water/Alcohol. Alcohol helps a couple ways of which one is the octane boost however small it is.
On my engine it is quite noticeable on the fuel useage when you look at the VE Map. The Auto tune takes out a lot of fuel at full boost to keep the AFR at 12.0:1 due to the alcohol being injected.
On the other hand you might not want the Alcohol since it will make it run richer and you have no control over it. With EFI you just pull fuel out if you want to keep the AFR's the same.... with a carb you would go richer unless you are a little lean and then it gives you that extra shot of fuel you need to keep it rich enough.
All you can do is try it......It will cost about $200.00 U.S. to build your own correctly.
With yours you will always see some vacuum so you need a good vacuum capable solenoid to keep from sucking the Water tank dry.

As far as size goes...it depends on your hp output. I use a 1.0 gph at 4 lbs. boost and another 2.0 gph nozzle at 8 lbs. boost for a total of 3.0 gph at 22 lbs. boost. It cools my IAT's about 100 degrees.

Do your research.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Post Reply