MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Bigger Injectors"

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by Chip Birks » Tue May 01, 2018 10:34 pm

Just remember, that valve doesn't close 100% once throttle opens. Its gonna create a pretty big boost leak, potentially.

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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Wed May 02, 2018 8:14 am

Chip Birks wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:34 pm
Just remember, that valve doesn't close 100% once throttle opens. Its gonna create a pretty big boost leak, potentially.
Didn't realize that. The leak will only occur with me not routing it back to the charge pipe though, correct?

I have another question too. I've been doing some research and shopping around for parts to make a water meth kit. I think I have decided to make my own kit, and just use the MS3 to control the pump and solenoid via relays off the "boost" output. One question that I have been searching for and can't find an answer to is regarding the solenoid. The pump that I am looking at is rated a 200psi, but a lot of the solenoids that I have shopped are only rated at ~120 to 100 psi. Seeing as the solenoid wouldn't see the 200psi because it would be opening at the same time as the pump turns on, is the lower psi rated solenoid ok to use? I saw the Snow Performance solenoid for $60, but there are several others that have good reviews and are less than half that.
'74 Standard- 1776T, MS3X3
'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by Chip Birks » Wed May 02, 2018 8:40 am

If it was routed back to the charge pipe, it would close the circuit and be just fine. I think on Mario's original Mexican setup, he didn't route to the charge pipe, it still made boost. I know that when he redid everything, he added the needed connections. Mine have always been looped in.

I wish i had info for you on the water meth stuff. I did similar to you, built my own setup using bits and pieces from a few places. I have a pump and nozzles from Devils Own, and a High Speed Valve from Howerton Engineering. No need for a solenoid when using the valve. It pulses like an injector using the ms3 water/meth injection settings and table.

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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Mon May 07, 2018 3:07 pm

I got the Idle Valve installed as it should be now, and its all hooked up and actuating. Now I just need to figure out how to get it fine tuned and help start my motor quicker. I think its open a little too much at the start, or I don't have enough gas in WUE/ASE because its taking like 2 or three minutes to start. I've done the startup autotune, and it hasn't really helped that much. I just need to get in there and figure out what I need to increase/decrease to make it fire up quicker.

Image

I also got my pump, nozzle, and tubing in the mail. Just waiting for the solenoid and need to find a tank and I'll get all that installed. Pretty excited.

Image

Also received my flex fuel sensor, and need to get that plumbed in.
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'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Tue May 08, 2018 7:36 pm

kangaboy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:07 pm
Now I just need to figure out how to get it fine tuned and help start my motor quicker. I think its open a little too much at the start, or I don't have enough gas in WUE/ASE because its taking like 2 or three minutes to start. I've done the startup autotune, and it hasn't really helped that much. I just need to get in there and figure out what I need to increase/decrease to make it fire up quicker.
Had a total break through today. Did some more research because I still didn't quite understand how the sequence of startup events went and how to really adjust them. Well after reading some info that I had read several times over the months, it actually sank in and I had a much better understanding of what was going on with Cranking Pulse, ASE, and WUE and ran out to the beetle to test them out. The Cranking Pulse as Chip mentioned was way off and needed to be doubled. After increasing that a bit, it fired right up. Between that and lowering my WUE to dial in a little more, it made a nice improvement on the warm up. It helps that the WUE is real time and you can adjust it on the fly and get instant results. I wont know after driving it a bit if my "hot start/heat sink" issue that I had is fixed, but it feels nice learning a little more about this project. Now time move on to the E85 and water/meth project so we can get some more boost going.
'74 Standard- 1776T, MS3X3
'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by andy198712 » Sat May 12, 2018 2:10 am

result!

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Mon May 14, 2018 10:50 am

2 questions:

1: When installing a flex sensor and running e85, am I basically switching my Table Switch/Dual Fuel settings to allow the use of E85...and then just run it? Looks like the curves are already set up in the MS software to account for 163% fuel with addition to timing as well. Bottom line, am I setting up a new fuel table, or just making sure the calculations are all correct and letting MS do its thing?

2: I have seen some say put the sensor in the pressure side of the fuel lines with no problems, others say put it in the return. I guess I could put it in the fuel feed line that goes into the T from the tank. Any say from y'all?
'74 Standard- 1776T, MS3X3
'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by Chip Birks » Mon May 14, 2018 1:33 pm

The simple way is to enable the sensor and let it do its thing. The standard settings will add fuel, timing and boost across the board. This last year i changed how mine does stuff, ended up going with an e85 table for timing and fuel because i didn't want to just change it across the board. But either seems to work fine.

That sensor is made to run in the return side, so I've been told.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by 64 sunroof » Wed May 16, 2018 8:19 am

the only issue that i had when i setup my flex fuel sensor (on my drag car) was i didn't change the base ethanol percentage in tunerstuido as my petrol had ~ 8 % ethanol in it :oops:

however i was really impressed how it worked with E70 winter blend (I get my E85 from France as a cheap race fuel 0.49 - 0.69 euro cents a litre) and even managed a pb (10.63 @133 :D ) one thing that i found when i was tuning if i deliberately made the map very rich just as it should be building boost the turbo spools faster i assume due to the extra exhaust gasses either way it felt like i had the nitrous on it :mrgreen:

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by 64 sunroof » Wed May 16, 2018 8:19 am

the only issue that i had when i setup my flex fuel sensor (on my drag car) was i didn't change the base ethanol percentage in tunerstuido as my petrol had ~ 8 % ethanol in it :oops:

however i was really impressed how it worked with E70 winter blend (I get my E85 from France as a cheap race fuel 0.49 - 0.69 euro cents a litre) and even managed a pb (10.63 @133 :D ) one thing that i found when i was tuning if i deliberately made the map very rich just as it should be building boost the turbo spools faster i assume due to the extra exhaust gasses either way it felt like i had the nitrous on it :mrgreen:

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Fri May 18, 2018 11:46 am

Is running E85 with water/meth too redundant? I have been doing a bunch of "internet" reading regarding how much cooling E85 can actually accomplish in the combustion chambers, and several threads I have read state there is no point to inject water/meth with E85, because it already runs so cool. I'm thinking I will try for 20lbs by the end of the season...or until something pops. I didn't know if it was safe to go that high with water/meth or E85 alone...or if both of them would be the safest bet.
Speaking from no experience, so unless someone says otherwise, I'm just going to go with better safe than sorry and run both.

Edit: Here is one of the articles I am referring too
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showth ... ?t=1554211
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'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by Chip Birks » Fri May 18, 2018 12:23 pm

I have both, and an intercooler. But i also have the flex sensor, so i potentially run gas too, so its good to have the meth option. I can't really say that having the meth has improved anything for me at this point, I've used it so little. I might just run water this year to pull the heat out, no need for the octane from the methanol.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Fri May 18, 2018 2:19 pm

Yeah, was thinking it would be nice to have the water/meth if I ever filled up with 89-91 gas.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by risk » Fri May 18, 2018 2:35 pm

Since you have the flex sensor I say go for it! I would love to be able to take my car on a trip longer than 100 miles or so where e85 isn't available.

I've been running E85 with 10.5:1 compression and around 15-18 psi of boost for the last year or so.. That may sound like a time bomb but.. I run it pretty rich, 10.5:1 afr under boost.. and sacrificed some power doing so. Off boost it's very responsive.. so much more than when the compression was lower. I'd like to add some water/meth injection just after the intercooler and lean it out to around 11-11.5 to get that power back.

My buddies that run turbo buicks say the advantage with the water/meth injection is that you can put the spray nozzle in the intake tract.. there it will have some time to cool the charge air and give a better temp drop than just port injection alone. With your injectors being right at or near the intake valve, you have a very small window to cool the charge before it hits the chamber.

I don't think it would be redundant to run e85 and water/meth injection, unless you planned on keeping the boost low.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "E85 and Water/Meth"

Post by kangaboy » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:50 pm

Couple updates over the last few weekends. Firstly, I got the flex sensor plumbed and wired up...now just waiting for the next fill up so I can get the e85 going :twisted:
In correlation with getting the e85 tune going, I wanted to get the electronic boost solenoid installed so I could bump my boost up a bit. Well the solenoid came, I got it plumbed and wired up...and in the mean time I was changing the oil. I was about done with the solenoid install and plumb, and went ahead and filled the motor back up with oil and fired it up for a second to get all the oil lines and filter full so I could get a better idea of how much more oil to add. Well apparently I had one of the nylon lines laying on the exhaust that I had plumbed to the EBC. So thats shot, and I'm waiting for more silicone lines to come in the mail. Yay.
Hoping to have the e85 tune going by midweek, with the new silicone lines on and plumbed up. At least all the wiring is done, so I just have to change out the nylon line and be done with it. Then the tuning begins with the EBC. I'm excited.
'74 Standard- 1776T, MS3X3
'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet

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