Stage 1 Oil Testing Done

cnavarro · Post by **cnavarro** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:17 pm

Hey guys, just wanted to share stage one of our oil testing and research stemming from the idea that possibly some of the cam and lifter problems were the result of changes in motor oils.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

Some of the results from our testing will go towards the choice of lubricants used in our 1883 912 engine and later in the bluebonic plague in it's cross country trek with the Hot VW's 2270.

Enjoy!

P.S. There are more oils currently being tested and this will be an ongoing process as time and money permit.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:34 pm

Ultimately leading up to our own engine oil!

I look forward to the cross country field testing of each oil. The data logger will show us things in real time that will benefit everyone! Oil samples taken from each oil and then analyzed wil give comparative results that have never been noted before!

Sounds like fun!

Can Drive Soon · Post by **Can Drive Soon** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:06 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Ultimately leading up to our own engine oil!

Yeah, If you want something good or done right do/make it yourself.

Very cool facts to share with us.

Post by **Tom Notch** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:30 pm

you have hidden oil reserves? Don't let Bush know!

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Ultimately leading up to our own engine oil!

The Noof · Post by **The Noof** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:04 pm

That was a good read.Looks like Mobil1 isa good bet for synthetic, and Castrol GTX for dino stock.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:11 pm

Mobil 1 is good for wear, but in the heat category it certainly is not the best.

The real testing is yet to come, the comparative oil analysis is an important part, but nothing tells the tale like direct testing in our engines. I did some of this 2 years ago but nothing as in depth as we have planned now.

cnavarro · Post by **cnavarro** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:47 pm

The only thing I can point to is possibly the high levels of boron influencing the oil to pull more heat out, requiring more oil cooling to maintain similar oil temperatures (or) the vast amounts of moly and phosphorus in the RP really do reduce friction that much that the oil runs that much cooler. Only side by side testing will tell us for sure

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

cnavarro · Post by **cnavarro** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:48 pm

That answers it. Wonders what an hour in google can produce:

Boron nitride (hexagonal BN, "white graphite") is a solid lubricant based on compounds of boron and nitrogen. Boron nitride maintains a low coefficient of friction up to 600°C (1112°F). Like flake graphite lubricants, boron nitride has a hexagonal crystal structure that cleaves or shears easily, resulting in good lubricating properties even at high temperatures. Boron nitride is available in various forms such as powders, sprayable coatings (release agents), or solid machinable shapes. Characteristics of boron nitride lubricants include:

High lubricity with low wear
Maintains lubricity (low friction coefficient) at high temperatures (compared to graphite, MoS2 or talc)
High thermal conductivity
Electrically insulating (dielectric constant ~4); graphite is conductive
Low thermal expansion
Easily colorable
Chemically inert

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

kansas buggy · Post by **kansas buggy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:09 pm

Just a littel side point about cam failures.

It is not confined to just the VW engine. Have heard and read about many failures in V-8 American iron that sounds very similar to the failures described in the Type 4 community.

One big question for me is: If its oil related then why are we not hearing about failures in all engines. Appears to me that the failures I hear about are with aftermarket cams during a rebuild.

Makes you go HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

melville · Post by **melville** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:49 pm

Howdy!

Failures are not limited to aftermarket cams. I pulled apart a stocker after just 3500 mi (dropped seat) and found what looked like 100,000 mi of wear (pits) on #1 and #3 intake lobe and #1 intake lifter. (#1 intake was always loose at adjustment time) I was probably not too far removed from having issues with COD (cam object debris) in the oil. That dropped seat saved my crank!

Thanks

Mel

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:55 pm

It's not just the oil.. Its not just the cam... and it's not just the lifters...

Its a culmination of all of the above and thats why some engines do not have the issues while others have it horribly.

I was able to solve the TIV cam issues by a series of processes and altered crown radii. I did not throw another variable into the development with various oils because it was already difficult and super expensive to test- I just wanted a result and after 18 months I got one.

Oil is the missing link and thats why Charles and I are working together on this.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:15 pm

Good read Len and a very interesting topic and results so far!

I am very fond lately about Kendalls GT-1 'High performance' in 20W50 form. They advertise as having high organic Zinc additives.

Did you test this specific oil as well yet? if so, how did it do in Zn-content?

Thanks!,
Walter

cnavarro · Post by **cnavarro** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:15 am

The Kendal GT-1 was tested and had very low levels of Zn and P, within the API mandates for the newest oils for less than .08%, which doesn't meet the criteria we were looking for. It did have some added boron which was quite impressive.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:50 am

FYI, i saw an add in the back of National Dragster that advertied some new brand of oil for racing that is located at the old Kendal plant, with the bla bla bla claim of using Pennsylvaina oil that kendal once used. Seems like they called it the Green brand oil.
If i can remember to look it up tonight, ill pass that name along.
maybe worth looking into.

edit. it might be called Penn Brand lubricants.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:58 am

Old School Kendall was my favorite Dino oil, thats back when the "green" wasn't an additive..