Propane - LP for use in Type 3 , 411 and 412 a story

NextGen · Post by **NextGen** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:40 pm

Back in the 70's when we had the gas shortages a mentor of mine had this idea. He figured seeing the T-3, 411 and 412 took 30 psi of gas all he had to do is run 30 psi off a tee with electronic switches to turn the gas off and turn on the prophane or LP. He figured the electric injectors didn't care. He passed away before I found out if he got it to work.

Ray, Jake, Dave, Pyledrive, some ideas on this one. Sounds logical to me. Maybe you would have to run less pressure seeing the propane is already a gas.

If it works then any guys running those cars can forget gas lines. Just go to the BBQ to get to work.

Feedback please, ha.
Joe

Manxaholic · Post by **Manxaholic** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:35 am

I was going to convert my old '66 Jeep Wagoneer over to strictly propane. While I was researching it, there were quite a few people who were running with the dual-fuel option. It's doable and fairly cheap (~ $500 - $700). The fuel injectors won't be a problem. There are quite a few resources on it on the net, a google search should provide a ton of info.

The thing to consider with propane is that its properties are quite different than gasoline. It has an octane equivalent of 110 (of course there is no octane in it). As such, you'll lose power and relative fuel efficiency on a stock motor. You could build up a motor with a really high CR (~11.0) and you won't have a performance loss, but running gasoline will then be an issue. The properties that make it desireable are numerous though. Since it is a gas, it fills up every bit of space within your fuel/intake system and is ultimately more efficient. Most people who run pure propane do not change their oil until every 10,000 miles, and it comes out looking almost the same as you put it in! Also, it is cleaner burning, helping both the environment and your engine.

I wish I still had my info and links available, but it is a pretty simple set up and the components are readily available on ebay and on the net. Most of the parts are the same used on propane powered forklifts and propane carbs are available to feed anything from a lawn mower engine to big block V8's!

farmer · Post by **farmer** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:55 am

there was a guy that explained quite abit about this issue on the WBX forum I think it was. And also came with a - different - approach as to why propane is not more widely used in traffic vehichles.
t

NextGen · Post by **NextGen** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:36 am

Thanks, I still am trying to figure if it is as easy as my friend made it sound.

As for the power loss etc. If it is that simple then at the flick of a switch you can go from starting up when needing power to propane when once on the highway and traveling long distances to save fuel. Just a thought.

I just found out what my next car is going to be, to be take me on my 70mile round trip to work. Mini is coming out with a 110hp Diesel in 2007 and the engine is a Toyota. Tests are showing more power then the gas car, in the ranges you need it and 600 miles per tank.

One big reason for going Diesel is with all the crap in the Middle East you can expect shortages on gas. There were no shortages on Diesel in the last big shortages in the US.. You will aways be able to get Diesel unless there is an all out World War.

sinistervw · Post by **sinistervw** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:27 pm

I am actually in the research phases of builing up a propane powere 1966 Datsun Roadster.

if i find any good links or info i will post them here.

Jeza · Post by **Jeza** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:46 pm

farmer wrote:there was a guy that explained quite abit about this issue on the WBX forum I think it was. And also came with a - different - approach as to why propane is not more widely used in traffic vehichles.
t

I remember that...

Here it is here
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... e&start=15

Cheers
Jeremy

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:29 pm

That one probably belongs in some sort of archive/"best of STF" list.
(Along with the T4 pushrod leak prevention thread, et al)

I still like propane---It seems far more "green" at the delivery/end user end, and COULD be made green on the producer end if anyone cared.
Your motor (if built for it) will love it, and if not purpose built, will still run OK, and last a LOT longer due to virtually zero oil dilution.

Its end-to-end efficiency absolutely blows H2 out of the ballpark, and that's not even talking about the horriffic fuel system/fuel delivery/infrastructure issues H2 WILL have.

If you wanted/required dual fuel capabilty, (assuming a purpose built propane optimized engine) one would have to run premium gas, and/or perhaps have a dual table ignition setup...
It's a solved engineering problem, in general. MS could deal with it easily.(easy way out is just have 2 complete setups tho)

Food for thought:
Ray always says that in Dallas etc, gas vaporizes off at up to 1 gallon/day. (105-107F here all last week) Multiply that by X million cars...

No way a charcoal canister holds the vapor from a gallon of fuel... Activated charcoal is great stuff, but the laws of physics kick in somewhere.

Propane wouln't have to vent off at _all_.

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:00 pm

Their was a ford pickup here a couple years ago that did a couple drag passes on propane but i haven't heard about the pickup since.

Dave_Darling · Post by **Dave_Darling** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:17 am

Piledriver wrote:If you wanted/required dual fuel capabilty, (assuming a purpose built propane optimized engine) one would have to run premium gas, and/or perhaps have a dual table ignition setup...

Easy way to deal with that... BOOST!

Have the engine run little or no boost when running on gasoline, and big boost when runing on propane!

But I have no idea how the air:fuel ratios work with propane/CNG/LNG/whatever. I'm sure it's a problem that's been solved, but you'd at least have to find out what the optimums are (for idle, cruise, WOT, overrun, etc.) and implement that switchover in your EFI system. Doable, but work.

I haven't looked at how using propane affects the rest of the engine, though from the above it sounds fine...

--DD

MadDog · Post by **MadDog** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:02 am

lets see $2.99 for gas, $1.99 for propane its got me thinkg about converting my daily driver!

NextGen · Post by **NextGen** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:45 am

I look at the big picture, some people may call me a survivalist. But I lived though the last two gas shortages, with lines 1/2 mile long, only able to get 10 gal of gas per car, odd even plate days. Leaving hours early to take mass transit, alway keeping enough gas in the car in case one of my kids got sick.

It is not only the saving of money. The way the world is lately, someone can turn the valve off at any time.

Propane or Diesel will aways be available. If those two have problems we will have to start burning wood to keep warm and no Buses or Trucks will run.

Not likely, gas on the other hand -- well it happened already.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:14 am

Hello,

Running Liquified Propane Gas or LPG as its called here, is already common for some 25 years in The Netherlands. I believe we have the most widely developed industry of LPG or autogas in the world.
This topic has come up more often and I have explained some of its use more often.
LPG is a liquid when heavily cooled down and today this is injected as a fuel directly as a liquid through separate injectors. The original ones don't seem to be appropiate.
Look also here: www.vialle.nl
www.necam.nl and www.autogas.nl
Most sites are in english as well IIRC.

I have run it in my square with type 4 engine and now am running it in my 412S with great succes.
I do use an older technique where the liquid LPG is firstly brung back in its gaseous state. This requires heat. Modern cars all use the water coolant as a medium. I use the engine oil for it. Its simply a sandwich adapter under the filter run to the gasifier you see installed on the right in the engine bay:
Under the Webers are alu pieces that divide the gas evenly over the bores.
The hose from the evaporator is split through an Y-pieces to divide the gas left and right.

The extra tank has been installed in the spare wheel well. There are more space saving possibilities for the extra tank, but I liked this way. It adds some extra weight on the front wheels:

I still run 10 ltr per 100 km (25-28 mpg?) and the LPG as a fuel is a third of the cost of petrol in my country...so you understand why the effort

Greets,
Walter

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:47 am

The distinction should be made....between LPG and Compressed natral gas. Both can be used, but I beleive that Natural gas is a little more difficult.
Generally...as Wally mentions....the most common way is to go from liquid back to gas. Its pretty much done in a modfied carburettor with a heater core in it. This is very common on farm vehicles in this country. Tractors...and pick-ups mostly.

But....from what I have heard...on higher compression engines that are common on the street....it is less favorable. Most of the farm vehicle engines are lower compression. I will have to ask for teh reasons. I will report back. Ray

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:59 am

raygreenwood wrote: The distinction should be made....between LPG and Compressed natral gas.

That is true!
Here we have some bus companies that run on natural gas. It also needs special gas station filling points...

But....from what I have heard...on higher compression engines that are common on the street....it is less favorable. Most of the farm vehicle engines are lower compression. I will have to ask for teh reasons. I will report back. Ray

Its the other way around actually with LPG: LPG has an octane rating of well above 100. Actually about 106 octane

There are very nice things possible with such an octane rating and/or a car that runs on LPG-only

Manxaholic · Post by **Manxaholic** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:07 am

When I was researching the issue for my Jeep, I remember coming across a statement that propane was a natural byproduct of the gasoline refining process. It is still cheaper than gasoline, but it's price is connected to the production of gasoline. No gas = no propane.