Swaybars Revisited

For road racing, autocrossing, or just taking that curve in style. Oh yea, and stopping!
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FJCamper
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Swaybars Revisited

Post by FJCamper »

Image

The swaybar (more correctly the "anti-roll" bar) is a commonly misunderstood part. Roll, in this case, means leaning while cornering. Most people know it improves handling, but not why, and don't know when to use a front and rear bar, or what differences swaybar thicknesses and attach points cause.

Originally, neither the Porsche 356 or VW's came from the factory with any kind of anti-roll bar. Porsche did not invent the anti-roll bar, but started to use a front bar on the Speedster in November of 1954. It cut ten seconds off laptimes at one test track.

VW began using it next, on the Ghia, in April 1956. The Bug got it soon after. So, if Porsche knew the engineering behind the anti-sway bar, why didn't they use it earlier? Simple. They originally thought the stiffness of the front torsion bars was enough to fight lean.

By resisting chassis roll, the tires stay planted more upright, weight transfer is more controlled, and the whole car responds better to steering inputs.

One of the less obvious effects of a front bar is it not only fights lean, it actually transfers some cornering loads to the rear wheels. The right front wheel throws its "weight" back to the left rear wheel, and the left front loads the right rear. An "X" effect.

The good news is this makes the whole chassis work better. The bad news is if you don't know this is happening, you can really screw up your cornering as you add other handling parts.

Read that as the average guy should be happy with a front bar only, especially on a swing-axle, and with caution on an IRS rear end.

Adding a rear bar doubles the "X" effect. The rear wheels now exert their cornering loads to the front wheels. Some tuning and balance needs to be employed.

A 19mm front bar, the most common aftermarket size, is a good bar for road or track. Add a 19mm rear bar, and you get a very responsive and sensitive rear end. Your oversteer still exisits, but at higher limits. Stick with a front bar and it's predictible understeer most of the time.

Aftermarket sway bars for the VW are amazingly stiff, compared to what Porsche issued even on its hotrod 911S. You got a couple of milimeters less. The factory knew a rear bar needed to be softer than the front bar.

In fact, the rear bar has the main job of keeping the front wheels on the ground in hard corners. Too stiff a front bar tends to make the Porsche-VW designs lift the unloaded front tire right off the pavement in a high-G turn. Time was, you could stand and watch the 911's lift a front tire and keep it in the air all the way around the infield hairpin at Daytona -- and it would stop spinning!

To plant the front tires, you fight your own front sway bar with a rear sway bar.

On our roadracing '70 Ghia, we run a 19mm front bar and no rear bar at the fast tracks. The faster you go, the less oversteer you want. Fast here means 100+mph curves.

A rear bar is great for autocross. And for street use if you want to cut a corner like a slotcar -- at reasonable street speeds.

FJC
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

I'd like to see different wording on the diagram captions.
The bar doesn't push or pull anything on its own, it only transfers spring rate from one side to the other.
The loaded tire is actually pushed downward by the springrate transferred across from the drooping "light" tire which is pulling down on the bar, not the other `way around. The added load increases the slip angle of the loaded tire which is why a larger front bar induces more understeer and a rear bar induces more oversteer - in simple terms, it makes the outer tire "give up" sooner than the one at the other end of the car.
Simply stiffening the spring rates will yield much the same effect on "limit" handling behavior, but at the expense of a less-compliant suspension and harsher ride. An anti-sway bar allows softer baseline springing by adding to the outside spring rate only when cornering - when both wheels on the same axle go over a bump simultaneously it does nothing.

A rear anti-swaybar is the last thing you want on a swingaxle rear - unless the suspension is lowered and its travel limited to prevent the outside rear tire from "tucking under" in a hard corner and flipping the car. That's the standard setup for autocross work but not common for a street ride...2" of suspension travel gets tiring quickly on a daily-driver.
A camber compensator or factory Z-bar does exactly the opposite of an anti-swaybar by reducing the springrate on the outer tire to inhibit both oversteer and the tendency to barrel-roll when the ass end jacks up over a tucking wheel.
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FJCamper
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A rose by any other name...

Post by FJCamper »

Image

Hi Marc,

I'm all for changing the suspension diagram's captions if it can be better clarified.

The above photo shows exactly what happens when swaybars are wrong. We had dropped our rear 19mm bar at a Road Atlanta event, and decided to try the combo of our new 2.2 liter and no rear bar on an autocross track.

Everything that could go wrong did again and again on this one location where a fast, abrupt manuver had to be made.

FJC
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

It ain't "body roll" when both inside tires are off the ground - just a practical demonstration of basic Newtonian physics - and a durn good test of driver skill :lol:


BTW, I've always felt that the importance of keeping all four tires in contact with the ground is vastly overrated when it comes to rear-engine cars - there's so little weight on the inside front tire that it doesn't make much difference what it's doing. Case in point, here's an early 911 in characteristic form:
Image

Years ago I had a circletrack 'Ghia that broke the LH upper balljoint as a result of some "chariot-racing" in the early laps - my driver finished the race that way (can't recall if it was a win but I'm sure it was a top-3 or better 'cuz he seldom did worse). Looked goofy as hell with the LF wheel dangling/flopping about between the lower balljoint and the tierod end, but it didn't slow him any in the corners, only in the straightaways from dragging a 10" slick sideways.
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FJCamper
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Racing Axioms

Post by FJCamper »

...and this brings us to...

You must stay on the road to win.

If you're still in control, you're not going fast enough.

Never go into a fast, tight corner with someone braver than yourself.

Spinning cars have the right of way.

The faster you go into the corners, the louder the strange suspension noises will become.

Racing isn't dangerous. Crashing is dangerous.

Trouble is easier to get into than out of.

Never let the race car take you somewhere your brain didn't get to seconds earlier.

If everything is going exactly as planned, you're about to be surprised.

and for us VW types...

Beware the racer who only has one type of car. He probably knows how to drive it.
helowrench
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Post by helowrench »

have you tried any of the smaller rear bars, say in the 14mm or so range?

Rob
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

The objective for most circumstances should be "neutral" handling, where neither the front or rear tires reach their limit of adhesion first. That's tempered by other factors of course, like how much power is available to swing the tail out and how much deflection the rear suspension has (more causes the outer rear tire to steer out when decelerating into a corner, leading to the dreaded "trailing throttle oversteer").
To this end it's typical to need more front anti-sway bar; only rarely is one needed on the rear. For a tight twisty autocross course setting the car up "loose" might be the fast way around even if it doesn't generate the best skidpad numbers, which is why rear bars are often used for that kind of work.
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FJCamper
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Where is?

Post by FJCamper »

Hey,

If anyone knows where lighter rear bars might be found, I'm interested. It seems like the industry somewhere decided 19mm was right for everybody and that's what we get.

Way back, I once had a 17mm ADDCO rear bar.

FJC
Flow
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Post by Flow »

Is the Porsche 924/944 rear 14mm bar any good? I've just got one with drop links and bushings from Ebay and am going to fabricate some mountings to put it on a super beetle.
helowrench
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Post by helowrench »

Flow wrote:Is the Porsche 924/944 rear 14mm bar any good? I've just got one with drop links and bushings from Ebay and am going to fabricate some mountings to put it on a super beetle.
The 14mm bar that I have is a 924/944 unit.

I think I paid $50 for it with the rear torsions , but I did not get the links with it.
I bought it on a hunch that since the 924/944 torsions/arms etc fit, that it would fit as well. Summary visual says that it should fit as well, provided I make some brackets to clamp the centers to tha torsion tube. (there is a kit for this type of application on the 924's that did not have the brackets welded on, but being a Porsche specialty part, it is $$$$)

Rob
helowrench
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Post by helowrench »

a quick perusal at http://924.org/techsection/technical.htm (suspension section) shows that 14/16/18/20mm options exist.

Rob
Flow
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Post by Flow »

I will fabricate some brackets similar to those from Kerscher

http://www.kerscher-tuning.de/images/dy ... &width=500
helowrench
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Post by helowrench »

Flow wrote:I will fabricate some brackets similar to those from Kerscher

http://www.kerscher-tuning.de/images/dy ... &width=500
And thanks to your pic, I have an idea of what I need to make as well.

Rob
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Post by Ghia Nut »

how about a 23mm bar in front and a 26 in the back?

little overkill I think
Bruce2
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Post by Bruce2 »

A sway bar is a torsion bar spring that connects the two wheels. The spring rate of a torsion bar is
proportional to the diameter raised to the 4th power. If you increased the front bar from 19mm to 23mm,
it's stiffness would increase by (23/19)^4 or 2.15 times.

Tiny increments in diameter have a large effect on the stiffness of the sway bar.
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