LIFTERS! The future looks promising! Maybe even rollers!

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LIFTERS! The future looks promising! Maybe even rollers!

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:50 am

Okay guys....

The Type IV lifter situation has gotten way out of hand. It is pretty sad when one is afraid to build an engine because of lack of good lifters.

*The ones that didn't use to fail- Fail like crazy.

*They made the faces better and the pushrod cups explode

*The only others that don't go flat weigh 140 grams, but don't last a whole long time due to their OEM stle face.

The only way to cure it is with Ceramics, and they cost 400 bucks a set+ and are hard for us to get from Schubeck. The ceramics are awesome lifters, they are true pieces of art and always will be. I will always try to use them exclusively in my engines, as I have for the last 6 months.

About a year ago I started doing a big search for someone to help us with lifters, and I finally found someone. I have sent them samples and are simply awaiting their price quotes and quantities. The shop that I am talking with does all their own work, and starts from a very high grade steel to make a lifter in excess of 70 Rockwell! That is awesome compared to the 58-60 Rockwell that we have been seeing out of the ones that are considered good. Since they do their own hardening, and manufacturing they test lifters at 7 different stages of production.

The other nice thing is that the way the lifters are produced they are super lightweight. They are probably going to be in the 75-80 gram range, much better than the 140 gram lifters that the factory used, and even better than the lightweight Scat lifters that used to weigh in around 98 grams.

The company primarily does work behind locked doors for high end race applications, and thats how I found them. Their primary business is to keep lifters alive in engines running OVER 1200 pounds CLOSED SPRING TENSION! These engines turn 9,500 RPM for hours straight. The owner of the company tells me that they can keep cams alive and looking near perfect for 4 of these races, then micropolish the lifters and get 4 more races, and they can do that for over a full season on the same cam and lifter set. The engines they primarily use these lifters in run 85,000.00 to build- A failure of a cam can lose someone over a million bucks if it happens at the right race!

The other nice thing is that all their products are designed to be rebuildable! They offer resurfacing of their parts very affordably!

My lifter testing fixture will be done this week, and I am dyning to test all these lifters and processes against each other with different cams, for hours on end and log all the data. The fixture will provide amazing data for different applications, ramp rates, oil types and etc.

The company I'm talking with also holds a patent on DROP IN ROLLER LIFTERS! These are compatible with the Type IV! They also make their own custom Billet roller cams and can make any profile that we want one off!

Stay tuned, all this will be happening very quick and pricing will follow!

So, in short:
These lifters won't go flat. They are super lightweight. They will have the capabilities of different oiling properties to the valvetrain. THEY WILL BE SOLD TESTED! Thats something that no current lifter has going for it- PERIOD!

As for pricing, expect someowhere in the middle ground between the cost of a set of The Old Johns on lifters and the cost of Ceramics- thats my goal.

btw, IF the roller lifters can be made to run in a TYPE IV- WATCH OUT! The power with these engines and my heads will explode, as my valves sit deep enough to allow stupid opening rates and still clear the pistons with no valve reliefs!
Last edited by MASSIVE TYPE IV on Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

turboteener.

Post by turboteener. » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:01 am

Are you talking to Jesel? They make a set of keyed roller lifters that would work well with a T4 but they are very expensive.

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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:08 am

Nope, The guy I'm talking to laughs at Jesel(he literally did yesterday when I mentioned them)..... This is a very small shop that only does cam and lifter work.

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Marc
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Post by Marc » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:30 am

Halle-friggin'-lulah! The IV design has cried out for roller lifters from day one - cam/lifter problems are the main reason I've shunned them, if there's finally a real solution even I might step up to a "big-block" :P

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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:39 am

Yep, I have had the same response from many, many people...

This is not just a post, I'm on top of it like you won't believe!

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Post by max power » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:44 am

Jake,

Not to sound daft, my knowledge of engines is limited to aircooled motors, but what are the advantages of roller lifters?

Thanks for all the R+D you're doing Jake, you remind me of myself... except you've talent and ambition :lol:

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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:57 am

They allow crazy ramp rates and reduce friction as the lifter does not have a flat face. It has a roller that traces the lobe, and the lifters no longer have to rotate..

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Stripped66
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Post by Stripped66 » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:02 pm

:?: Jake,
do you have any design info on the drop-in roller lifters? I'm in the process of retrofitting an older SBC with roller-lifters. Besides the typical retrofit lifters that are tied together in pairs, or adapting the newer guideplates used in later factory roller blocks, I'd have to assume these "drop-in" lifters are guided by the lobe of the camshaft...

...so, any secrets you can share, or are they already on the market (and could you point us to where :D )?

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Post by max power » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:04 pm

Any advantages over ceramics? Just curious

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Stripped66
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Post by Stripped66 » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:08 pm

max power wrote:Any advantages over ceramics? Just curious
(easily and/or cheaply) Rebuildable...cheaper?

[edit: in relation to the flat tappet lifters Jake is researching...not the roller lifters]
Last edited by Stripped66 on Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Marc » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:11 pm


max power
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Post by max power » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:18 pm

Any advantages over ceramics?
They allow crazy ramp rates

Crazier than a flat face would allow? Fast Ramp rate+properly configured head=more power?

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Stripped66
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Post by Stripped66 » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:34 pm

max power wrote:
Crazier than a flat face would allow?


Way crazier...I know roller cams for ACVWs are not common, but you should compare a SBC performance roller cam to a performance flat tappet cam.
max power wrote: Fast Ramp rate+properly configured head=more power?
For two cams having the same peak lift and same advirtised duration, the faster ramp-rate cam will achieve any position of the valve's lift, as it opens, earlier, and hold the valve open near it's peak lift longer (e.g. greater duration within 80% of peak lift...greater duration within 90% of peak lift).

While having the same advirtised duration, the faster ramp-rate cam will generally have greater duration at .050".

Basically, the faster ramp-rate cam get's the valve open to lift's where you've got appreciable head flow sooner, and holds the valve open above those beneficial lifts longer, allowing for flow across the duration of the valve cycle.

:D Think of it like a door that is going to open and shut in 5 seconds. The door that opens slow will not allow any people through until it is at least 25% open, and will stop allowing people through after it is 75% closed. The door that opens and shuts at a slow rate will allow less people through than a door that quickly slams open and stays there, then quickly slams shut (in the same 5 second period :D ) Stoopid analogy, I guess :oops:

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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:14 pm

Yep, my heads have deep enough chambers that most set ups would never need valve reliefed pistons, so those crazy ramps will definately benefit them.

The Pauter set ups that are currently available were not thought out very well at all. They developed alot of stuff when TIVs were used in Supervee and Midgets, but the stuff broke too often and all those guys went Autocraft.. Now all that is breaking and we are talking to a few teams in the Midgets about getting back into TIVs, since we have Nickies and newer technology..When that happens wait for the TIV R&D to really explode.

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Post by Ephry73 » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:24 pm

At that rate then one could not only have more power, but a more quiet engine as well! WoW!


Jake, again, thanks for keeping us honest!

Do list your findings and what price range they have. Also, will the roller lifters be compatible with standard camshafts. or will a roller camshaft be necessary?(dumb queation, but felt like asking)




Thanks,


E

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