The latest on the "Super 2 Liter"

This forum is for any discussion related to Aircooled Technology, the DTM shroud and Massive TypeIV engines. You may read and search this forum, but you can not post to it.

Moderator: Daniel G

Locked
MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

The latest on the "Super 2 Liter"

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:36 pm

while I was away a ton happened with the project and I'm just now getting the time to write about it.

As it sits now its a complete shortblock, ready for the cylinder heads to be final prepped and installed.

I took a ton of pictures of the RAT Superfinished parts and we have uploaded them to the site under R&D at this link http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_superfinish.htm

The superfinishing is NOT a chrome plating, as it may appear. The Superfinished parts are basically polished to not only a high luster, but a super smooth finish that is sure to reduce friction as well as cut down on windage. I chose to do this process to the engine to reduce friction primarily, as friction is the one thing we have to overcome to help achieve the 50 MPG goal we have for the engine. With the Superfinishing the parts that would normally rotate with a bit of drag without oil don't anymore- For instance rocker arms slide on their shafts like glass, even bone dry with no oil at all!

The transaxle components are next to Superfinish, in their entirety. The processes create components that are so free of burrs and tight places that the tranny will really love the benefits and so will the CV Joints, which will also receive a dose of the process. The goal is to reduce drag through the engine and entire drivetrain and up efficiency!

I have all the other parts ready for assembly onto the Super 2 Liter, we are just waiting on getting the heads back from coating and the valves back from being DLC coated. The DLC reduces friction even further and stops wear in it's tracks- both of which are very welcomed.

we got the MassIVe 79 Vert back from the painters on Thursday and things will progress quickly with it now. The goal is to debut the car at the Florida Bug Jam and use the 7 hour trip there to data log our first 50 MPG trip on the way down! I refuse to work in haste, so if we can't make the show without rushing we won't be able to debut the car till next spring, which is still OK because it will give me plenty of time to really dial in the Engine Management system with the aid of the data logger and will let Beth get some good solid miles on the engine over the winter as well.

I have a ton of pics to post on the site of the car's teardown and build up- thats my goal for this week, before I get too far behind and going wide open with work on the car. Look for a post about the car's status this week.

User avatar
Racer Chris
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 3:01 am

Post by Racer Chris » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:10 pm

BTW, the header is almost fully assembled. The muffler won't get started until after Pocono most likely.

User avatar
Wally
Posts: 4017
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Netherlands, Europe

Post by Wally » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:17 am

Very nice!
Reducing windage bij smoothing out the case internals seems like a good idea for any engine :wink:

Question about the rods: you use the H-beam ones in this engine I saw from the pics; Wouldn't it from a friction point of view be advantageous to use I-beam rods?
The thought behind it is that oil can (and will) fall on top of the 'up'-side of the H beam rod, in the 'U'-part so to speak, and that the oil that falls into that 'cavity' gets projected throught the case by the movement of the rods (forth and aft and up and down to some degree). That oil beating costs energy, thus power...
An I-beam rods can't 'capture' oil on its beam because of the I-profile.

I hope I got across what I meant... :D

Best regards,
Walter
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

User avatar
Tony Z
Posts: 1208
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Post by Tony Z » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:13 am

I know I dont have anything to do with this engine, but I think the H-beams are lighter than the I-beams.

Jake, are you putting on a vacuum scavenging system as well, less air in the engine case, less lost inertia moving it around

The parts look brilliant. What about using straight cut cam gears. I am sure they would reduce friction partially, even if just by eliminating thrust

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:42 am

The H beam rods were free..... Like every other part in this R&D engine they were USED! They are also quite a bit lighter.... And 'm not really worried with the windage they may create because windage everywhere else is so drastically reduced, plus this engine won't be revving over 4500 RPM, because of the hi velocity combination and the gearing in the vert is insanely high.

No vacuum pump will be used, and should not be needed. Thats one reason we Nikisil plated the cylinders, to drop blowby in it's tracks.

I did not use straight cuts because of their noise- Beth would shoot me if the engine whined like my 914 engine does. REMEMBER THIS IS NOT A PERFORMANCE ENGINE!!!!!!!! It is a daily driver for a CHICK! That means it must be totally tractable, easy to drive, not break and be quiet as a mouse- it will.

HAM Inc
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:33 am

Post by HAM Inc » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:54 pm

Chris make sure you keep the EGT's down on those long Poccono straights! Congrats on the win at Lime Rock.
Good luck!

User avatar
vw505
Posts: 2147
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Dallas, Tx

Post by vw505 » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:45 pm

len how are my heads coming?

HAM Inc
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:33 am

Post by HAM Inc » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:08 pm

Michael e-mail and I'll go over your project with you.

User avatar
raygreenwood
Posts: 11793
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:01 am

Post by raygreenwood » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:16 pm

Jake....it will be interesting to see how well all of this works. I know how the superfinishing process works, because I know people who use it a lot (they have a different name for it). They swear by it. Also....they originally started using it for differential side gears and ring and pinions. They swear by the lower heat and spot on gear tolerances they are able to set. For those that do not know....this is a polishing process that removes no measurable tolerance (if you are using what I think you are). It simply results in an incredibly low surface RZ/RA. Cool stuff.

Are those cast iron cylinders that you have Nikasil plated...and will that process be available through your shop? Ray

User avatar
aircooledtechguy
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Anacortes, WA

Post by aircooledtechguy » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:22 pm

Looks slick. Why not knife edge the crank though?? Or put a near knife edge on the bases of the pistons to aid in removing oil from the lower cylinder walls?? This also aids in cooling the pistons too bu diverting oil into the piston crown. Looks interesting for sure. I'll be interested in hearing how this engine performs in both HP and milage over the long haul.

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:09 pm

If I were looking for more revs or HP, I would have knife edged the crank. With only 110 HP as a goal- It didn't need anything more.

Ray, it is what you think it is, more than likely- I am in love with it so far!

Yes, those stock cylinders are Nikisil plated, you can get the service from LN Engineering- Charles was gracious enough to donate those to the effort with this engine and gain some data from it himself..

User avatar
raygreenwood
Posts: 11793
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:01 am

Post by raygreenwood » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:38 pm

Cool! Thank you! If the new job goes well....you should be seeing a parts order by September. Ray

User avatar
sixTsix mike
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:55 pm

Post by sixTsix mike » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:05 pm

hey jake what did you use (Brasso) on them parts?

I guess you still got the ol' (hmx) cleaning jeans in you!

I did that to a set of heads (stock) on a 1600 type 1, in the chambers and intake and exhaust made a big diff. I dont have flow #'s but It will run mid 15's in the 1/4 mile w/110 cam and 36idf's! in a 66 hard top!

krusher
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 3:01 am

Post by krusher » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:44 am

I have been reading about exhausts latly, is there gonna be anything differant about the design of the one fitted to this engine, I see tangerine are building it. whats size primarys to what size main. How about throwing a dynomax cat on there and have a super efficient clean machine.
:wink:
Last edited by krusher on Wed May 24, 2006 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:04 am

We went very small on the primary diameters.. smaller than normal due to the size/combo of the engine..

It should burn very clean without a CAT.... Its got so much CR that there won't be anything left unburned in the chambers with its super stumpy cam....

I'll be measuring CO on this engines dyno runs for emissions reasons... This is the first of the engines that we are building for "Tomorrow" when we'll all be faced with BS smog tests... We plan to be ahead of that game and absolutely geared up for it!

Locked