Supercharger and cooling

This forum is for any discussion related to Aircooled Technology, the DTM shroud and Massive TypeIV engines. You may read and search this forum, but you can not post to it.

Moderator: Daniel G

funkSoulP
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:13 am

Supercharger and cooling

Post by funkSoulP » Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:49 am

Jake, I read that you had built some supercharged engines, and are planning to build more in the near future. How did you solve the cooling on those engines. I saw one that had a flat fan on top, like a Porsche 917.

Have been fooling around some time trying to think of a way to build a "daily" driver with a supercharger. My problem is how to fit it all under the hood. The blower (Eaton M45) is too long to fit beside the alternator with an upright cooling in a beetle.

With a Porsche fan there is room for the blower, how about the DTM? It is slightly offset compared to a T-1 shroud so a few cm more space, I assume?

And how about the driveshaft of the blower? It is longer than necessary and I can't find any reason why it must be that long. Is it possible to make a new nose piece with shorter shaft?

User avatar
cnavarro
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:01 am

Post by cnavarro » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:26 pm

I can't answer the fan question exactly other than to say that the flat style fan is a poor solution, even worse than the 911 style shroud. If the DTM can be made to fit, Jake can do it. Cylinder wise, you'd probably want to stick to a smaller 90.5mm bore or at the largest, a 93 or 94mm bore depending on how much boost you'll be building. I would assume 5 psi on a 93 or 94 bore would be fine, especially if you step cut the heads. Any larger than that, you'll want a set of Nickies. Jake's currently working or a large displacement turbo engine that he'll be using a set of thickwalled Nickies for- we have three to choose from, including a 98, 100, and 102mm bore, all based on the registers of a STD 103 cylinder, so they are interchangeable in that respect. On the thicker 98s and 100s, you can get away even with flame ringing using 911 components for a physical interlocking seal.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

User avatar
dstar
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:01 am

Post by dstar » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:06 pm

cnavarro wrote:....... On the thicker 98s and 100s, you can get away even with flame ringing
using 911 components for a physical interlocking seal.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
HEY Charles, thanks for the parts!
:D

Anywho, what is this flame ringing you are talking about?
I had thought about machining a groove in the head for a viton seal.
Is that it?

Fast German Auto has the o-rings for sale.

Don

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:41 am

I wouldn't buyy a damn pushrod tube seal from them!

The process isn't that simple anyway to be done correctly for the best resullts.. We are going to run 20+ PSI boost on this 2.7L engine, and with a few Turbo enhancements it whould make some sick power AND retain its reliability..AND its longevity!

User avatar
the_troupster
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:19 pm

Post by the_troupster » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:15 am

Wow! That's got to be pushing 600+bhp...?

With regards to supercharging, you've got no choice but to go Porsche style cooling in my opinion. Do a search for Moggy on here for a 'here's one a made earlier'. He's running a M65, which is a good cheap unit. But if your just testing the water, Google for Kenne Bell. This dude makes frickin' awsome blowers.

Jim

PS. How about using a wasserboxer case, Jakes billet heads, Nickies.... oooh, the list goes on! :wink:

User avatar
cnavarro
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:01 am

Post by cnavarro » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:11 am

Don,

Here are a few threads from Pelican Parts on the topic of flame ringing. It's to make a long story short, a physical interlocking ring that is mated with a groove between the head and cylinders capable of withstanding extreme temperatures.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthre ... flame+ring

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthre ... flame+ring

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthre ... flame+ring

P.S. Hope the spacers work out well! If not, I can send you more and you can use them as building blocks!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:34 am

Why would one think that Porsche style cooling would be a must?? I ask this simply due to the facts I have proven in the past few years that clearly show the Porsche style fan is the worst arrangement off the shelf to keep head/cylinder temps lowest and the most even.

I have 4 Turbo TIV projects planned for 2006 and one super charged engine. All will utilize the DTM for cooling.

The first one is well underway for my 914...

User avatar
dstar
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:01 am

Post by dstar » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:48 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:I wouldn't buyy a damn pushrod tube seal from them!

-------------
WOW! They did you that bad in the past, eh?
:shock:

Don

User avatar
dstar
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:01 am

Post by dstar » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:00 pm

cnavarro wrote:Don,..... Hope the spacers work out well!
If not, I can send you more and you can use them as building blocks!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
BUWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yea, I have got my BLING on now, I have 10 RINGS on my fingers!
8) And six on my TOES!
:wink:

I'm sure they will be fine. I WILL need another couple sets if I can find
more stroker crankshafts though, so don't sell em ALL!
:lol:

Don

User avatar
the_troupster
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:19 pm

Post by the_troupster » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:12 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Why would one think that Porsche style cooling would be a must?? I ask this simply due to the facts I have proven in the past few years that clearly show the Porsche style fan is the worst arrangement off the shelf to keep head/cylinder temps lowest and the most even.

I have 4 Turbo TIV projects planned for 2006 and one super charged engine. All will utilize the DTM for cooling.

The first one is well underway for my 914...
I understand the benifts of your DTM shroud (fantastic work by the way). I was refering to the space constraits within a Beetle's engine bay for a supercharger. I'll be very interested in how you 'charge a TIV with a DTM.

I didnt mean to confuse.

Jim

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:28 pm

I have done it 3 times... You'll see later on if you pay attention here around the end of 2006/

funkSoulP
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:13 am

Post by funkSoulP » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:48 am

Jake, what supercharger will you use with the DTM?

The Eaton is quite long, but there are other good (or even better) alternaives. The Eaton just happens to be available at low price.

User avatar
Wally
Posts: 4027
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Netherlands, Europe

Post by Wally » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:43 am

cnavarro wrote:I can't answer the fan question exactly other than to say that the flat style fan is a poor solution, even worse than the 911 style shroud.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
Hi Charles,

Please explain the above: Why would that be so?

AFAIK, even Jake hasn't tested any flat style fan assembly's ... (actually there is/was only one commercially available: Riechert, Germany) and apart from robbing more power obviously, the cooling of a flat set-up should theoretically be very even - just because the way it is positioned over the engine :?

Thanks,
Walter
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

MASSIVE TYPE IV
Posts: 20132
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 2:01 am

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:56 am

Yep, I have never directly6 compared the horizontal set up against anytyhing else..

I can see some issues with tangential flow due to the air not having much room to be diverted to the left bank cylinders, but thats pure speculation at this point.

funkSoulP
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:13 am

Post by funkSoulP » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:47 am

The flat style cooling in the 917 was not bad at all. According to some sources, it moved 2400litres of air per second.

I guess that the flat fan arrangement could be made to work very well. The problem is how to drive the fan. I've seen some autocross cars with a belt drive, and they usually throw the belt frequently. The 917 had, I think, a shaft driven fan. Someone also said something about a torque converter in the fan, but could have been some other engine (908?).

Locked