Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Lee,
Where did you get your bushings? I have these for my T1.
Have you tried fitting the trailing arms into the plastic bushings? Do you have any problems sliding the trailing arms into your bushings?

I just went out and checked my other set and they are sold by Bug Pack; the package has a small tube of donut snot in the shrink wrap package; I got my bushings from a local VW parts house many years ago. What I call donut snot is a messy evil concoction that you rub on the inner surface; when you use it, I would wear some throwaway gloves. There are aftermarket choices you can use too that may or may not work better.

The doughnut that goes to the inside of the torsion housing needs to be lubed before you slide it on the spring plate and make sure things are clean before you do anything with the snot! The fit was tight but I don't remember them being any more of a problem than the stock ones were (they were oblong which is why I replaced them); more of an irritation putting things back together. At the time I got them the stock ones were not readily available and I wasn’t too sure of the other black ones which I have since heard may be better.


When I first put the donuts on they did not squeak; it was when I took the spring plates off again, to reset the preload I got dirt on them and had to wipe them out which took the lube also, that was when they got noisy. There are lubes you can get that will quiet them down but with so many other noises they haven't been a high priority… yet. Since I have a glass bodied buggy, a lot of those noises and squeaks’ are somewhat filtered out or the sound is bounced away. It is when someone leans against my car that you hear what sounds more like a groan than a squeak but then a lot of the guys I know, if they sat on me I’d groan too. My GoPro is the thing that catches the high pitched noises so I turned the sensitivity down or turn the volume down.

Lee

[hotrodsurplus]

Do you happen to be dealing with the same bushings as Pacific Customs (above)? They sell it as Delrin, but the package says polypropylene which is not the same!

I have not bought anything from Pacific Customs so I can't vouch for the bushings. You are very right that polypropylene is radically different from acetal. I wonder if the package labeling is incorrect. Polypropylene should feel sort of soft and deform fairly easily. Acetal is hard like nylon.

Despite the different chemicals, do you think that polypropylene bushings should not be lubricated either?

As far as I know all common bushing materials for automotive use can be lubricated; whether or not they need it is another story. Like lubricating acetal bushings with a good-quality silicone-based grease won't hurt them but it won't help them either.

I think that polypropylene requires lubrication; I do not believe that it self lubricates. That is a pretty specific property. I think that I have used polypropylene bushings before. These particular ones definitely needed lubrication (they squeaked to high hell when run dry). These bushings were slicker/harder than urethane but not as hard as acetal. They also cold-flowed (displaced under load) after a while. Neither urethane nor Acetal has done that to me (not to say that it can't, of course).

Now about lubrication. As I wrote before use the SILICONE-based stuff that places like Dee Engineering and Energy Suspension sell. Again, conventional petroleum greases (including synthetic, which is derived from petroleum but re-engineered with different molecular chains) are SOLVENT based. Solvents dissolve plastics (some of course resist this more than others). Non-silicone greases will dissolve most plastics and I have bushings to prove it, too. Silicone greases will also stay put and not wash out like conventional greases will. I fought squeaky bushings for years rebuilding suspensions almost annually and suffering creaks and groans 'til I gave in and used the correct stuff. I'm going on years with cars assembled with the right stuff and they STILL don't squeak. They also ride as smoothly as the day they went together.

I know some people swear that they get away with certain petroleum lubricants and even anti-seize but in the end the bushings will degrade. And they'll probably squeak, too.

[/rant]

Pacific Customs did not know much about it when I called them.

No surprise there. That's why I won't buy from mail-order places like that. I'll gladly pay a little more for customer service and expertise.

they were less than certain about why I had trouble sliding the trailing arms in. They suggested their bushing reamer. Have you had to ream these bushings?

Yes, always. I have always bought them from SACO http://www.sacoperformance.com/products.php?cat=28. The official and most correct way to ream them is indeed with an adjustable reamer that you can get for pretty inexpensively from places like Enco. But I admit that I cheated. I made a 'flap wheel' by gluing sandpaper to a long 1/2-inch-diameter dowel and spinning it with a drill motor. The potential problem is that they might not maintain the same ID over the length of the bushing but it always seemed to work fine.

About the Acetal that I use. I buy it in bar stock from a supplier and whittle it down myself. I use it in fabricated suspension linkage in my V-8 cars. I just buy it ready to go from SACO. It's certainly cheaper that way.

Canadia

I say that both intentionally and unintentionally

Canadians look at me sorta funny when I say it that way but it makes it sound way more exotic than most of Canada really is.

[hotrodsurplus]

I just went out and checked my other set and they are sold by Bug Pack; the package has a small tube of donut snot in the shrink wrap package

Your 'donut snot' is that silicone grease. Those bushings are urethane--at least they should be for several reasons. Bugpack belongs to Dee Engineering; Dee Engineering also owns Prothane. So it's in the company's best interests to make everything it can from urethane.

What I call donut snot is a messy evil concoction that you rub on the inner surface; when you use it, I would wear some throwaway gloves. There are aftermarket choices you can use too that may or may not work better.

You're spot-on correct about the evil part. We used to joke that whenever you greased a job with the stuff you'd inadvertently grease everything within touching distance, including the dog. It's so sticky that it'll tear ordinary latex gloves. Nitrile gloves seem to hold up well to it, though.

The old marketing rep at Energy Suspension once told me that ES got its silicone grease from the same vendor as everybody else so they should all be the same.

The doughnut that goes to the inside of the torsion housing needs to be lubed before you slide it on the spring plate and make sure things are clean before you do anything with the snot!

And liberally grease up the entire bushing, inside, outside, and the face that touches the spring plates. And make sure you do both bushings, inner and outer. I don't trust the measly capsule that they supply with the kits. It's never enough to really coat the bushings thoroughly. There's no kill like overkill.

I wasn’t too sure of the other black ones which I have sense heard may be better.

There was a lot of hype about a decade or so ago about poly-graphite impregnation in urethane bushings. It may be real for some companies (like PST) but as far as i know none of them make parts for VWs. Urethane can be pigmented just about any color in the rainbow. If given a choice I buy black so the bushings don't stand out. I'm not particularly concerned with trying to impress people that would be impressed by a colored bushing.

it was when I took the spring plates off again, to reset the preload I got dirt on them and had to wipe them out which took the lube also, that was when they got noisy.

Bingo! That's why I bought the lifetime-supply tube. It's cheap insurance--I can rebuild anything at will without ever worrying about the grease. I've found other uses for it, too.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks for the tips HRS, I have a box of Latex gloves and I had the intent of buying Nitrate gloves for something else so I think a box of them is in order. The nitrate gloves are worthless when dealing with most solvents I have found and tear quite easily if working on anything stronger than removing nose oysters. I had a pair of Nitrate gloves but they got legs and left it seems.

Is there any high speed solvent that cuts the Silicone grease for cleanup that won't affect the Urethane (they are Urethane and the black version wasn't available when I got my two sets)? If I did it again, I think I would opt for the stock donuts which I couldn't get at the time.

I have learned a lot on this build after being offered a set of Thing front suspension components by someone we both know.

Lee

[hotrodsurplus]

Thanks for the tips HRS, I have a box of Latex gloves and I had the intent of buying Nitrate gloves for something else so I think a box of them is in order.

No prob. Just ask for nitrile, not nitrate. Nitrate is an inorganic salt; nitrile is a rubber-like compound.

The nitrate gloves are worthless when dealing with most solvents I have found and tear quite easily if working on anything stronger than removing nose oysters. I had a pair of Nitrate gloves but they got legs and left it seems.

Uhh...then those weren't nitrile gloves that you had. Latex gloves dissolve rapidly in the presence of acetone, lacquer thinner, and brake and carburetor solvents. Nitrile on the other hand is far more stable in the presence of solvents, hence its popularity in carburetor seals and as a valve-stem material. I switched to nitrile in the '90s when I worked in a machine shop. I would frequently get two days' worth of work from a pair of disposable surgical nitrile gloves whereas I'd be lucky to get two hours' work from latex surgicals. I use a thicker type of nitrile glove (think dish gloves) when I lay up fiberglass. I have three months of work on them and they're still as nice as new despite repeated bathings in resin and acetone. My only complaint is that nitrile lacks the tactility of surgical gloves. Can't win 'em all, tho.

Is there any high speed solvent that cuts the Silicone grease for cleanup that won't affect the Urethane (they are Urethane and the black version wasn't available when I got my two sets)? If I did it again, I think I would opt for the stock donuts which I couldn't get at the time.

I use acetone or lacquer thinner to clean mine. You won't be exposing them long-term to the stuff so it wouldn't hurt them at all. I use the rubber spring-plate grommets exclusively on cars that see street use but don't really advise them for off-road use. Plastic is probably a better application for it. In probably 7,000 miles of use rubber spring-plate grommets in my Thing have deflected to the point that the spring-plate sleeve is just about to touch the retaining plate and that car sees nothing but street use.

I have learned a lot on this build after being offered a set of Thing front suspension components by someone we both know.

It's all part of my plan to convert every off-road ball-joint car to Thing suspension. I'm glad you're finally using it.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"...Latex gloves dissolve rapidly..."

Yes, I was thinking ahead of my typing and I guess didn't proof it well enough; the same with the spelling error. Never been a good speller and I am a typical disaster of the Phonetic spelling: "sound it out" theory (and others from the 50’s) that does not account for regional dialects/pronunckiations’ and edumacation attempts. They, then as now, are ruining a lot of people with personal theories and agendas. When I was teaching an "industral" class at one of the colleges I got to see a lot of it going on.

Lee

[ProctorSilex]

VW designed the T1 and Thing beams with zerks to have grease forced through. The entire beam is filled with grease. From experience and described properties of the silicone lubricant, it will stick much better to the parts than conventional grease and not need to be reapplied frequently. Considering that the silicone lubricant is expensive compared to a basic petroleum grease ($28 for a 14 ounce tube), does it make sense to lube the spring leaves and polyurethane/plastic bushings with the silicone lube during assembly and NOT fill the beam with grease through the zerks?

Even if the bushings are Delrin and do not require lube, would it not be for the best to lube it to keep water out?

hotrodsurplus,
BTW, the bushings that I got look exactly like the ones you linked to SACO. They felt very hard. The paper backing of the package was blue.

[Steve Arndt]

I'm installing thing spindles and arms on my baja now. I will take a few pics to add to this thread.

[hotrodsurplus]

The entire beam is filled with grease.

It seems that way but that's not exactly the way it works. There's a micarta bushing about six or so inches in from the end of each beam end that the trailing arm slips into. When you grease the fittings the majority of the grease can go only as far as that inner bushing. The rest (and the majority) displaces out of the outer bushing (to like '61) or bearing (all cars thereafter). So really you're packing only the ends of the beam between the housing and the trailing arm. Of course the inner bushings don't seal completely so a bit of grease ends up displacing into the open torsion housing around the springs. But that area doesn't get packed with grease--at least it wasn't designed to get packed with grease.

Not that and of the preceding really matters for the reasons explained next but I have to find creative ways to employ this otherwise useless information gleaned from tearing down I can't tell you how many beams at a VW production machine shop.

does it make sense to lube the spring leaves and polyurethane/plastic bushings with the silicone lube during assembly and NOT fill the beam with grease through the zerks?

It pays to at least skim the springs with a touch of grease but it needn't be silicone--in fact it would be a waste of material and might not be the best solution. I just use regular bearing grease for that. Judging by what springs looked like on the pristine beams I've pulled apart, VW sprayed the individual plates with a thin, tacky, cosmolene-type goo presumably to protect them more than lubricate them.

Now about the bushings. I have polyurethane bushings in one beam right now. There's no real reliable way to grease them with the existing fittings. The bushing is solid (no holes) so there would be no way for the grease to get to the trailing arm. You could drill a hole in the bushing but the hole wouldn't align once the bushing rotated a little bit in the beam (which I'm sure it does even if slightly). It doesn't really matter anyway because if you slop up the ID and OD of the bushing with the sillycone stuff it should stay lubricated for as long as the parts remain intact.

As far as using acetal bushings in the beam, they don't need lubrication. Run 'em dry.

Even if the bushings are Delrin and do not require lube, would it not be for the best to lube it to keep water out?

I don't think lube would hurt but it does attract dirt and dirt does invite wear. The best way (at least that I've found) to keep water out is to get some radiator hose that fits tightly over the beam and and the trailing-arm flange and slip it over the trailing arm before you install it. Hibbard shows a variation of that in his book but that particular one uses hose clamps for reasons unknown. But if you get it just tight enough and cut it just long enough, it holds itself in place making hose clamps unnecessary. And I suppose you could pack those with grease for a belts-and-suspenders approach.

BTW, the bushings that I got look exactly like the ones you linked to SACO. They felt very hard. The paper backing of the package was blue.

That sounds like 'natural' acetal. Manufacturers dye it for various applications, hence the common black acetal. Can't vouch for the blister packing because all of the ones I got were loose and not packaged.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I got some time in the garage today (it raining out) and the seams are welded (I have a couple of touch up areas) and I finally got the used area on both of the upper shock mounts in the tower fixed. I wish I had looked at this beam harder before I started but it looked like the better of the two beams I have. I may have to weld in a big washer on top of the beam because of all the rust dimples on one side of the beam. It shouldn't be hard and may be a good idea if you are going to run hard and have shocks that get progressively stiffer as you beat on them.

I got the area for the adjusters cleaned up of paint and other crud so I need to get a couple of things then onto this learning experience.

Steve, good idea to keep a lot of information in one spot.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

After doing the weighing of the trailing arms (another post) I started to work on the adjusters.

“4. On cars with Linkpin front end, (pre 1966) scratch a horizontal mark 3” long directly though the center of the hole for the set screw on the top of the tube. On cars with a balljoint front end (1966 and on) carry out the same procedure then mark another line parallel to the fits one, but 1-9/16 above it.

This has not been done yet!

5. Mark another line vertically though the center of the set screw hole which bisects your horizointal at 90 degrees exactly. Mark two more vertical lines exactly 1” either side of your first vertical line. These are your cutting line.”

I got instruction #5 done before my back went south.

It is funny how you know something but don’t know it and when someone points it out to you your jaw drops and slobber comes out all over the place. This happened to me the other day. I don’t remember if it was on STF or somewhere else but it should be intuitive but that isn’t necessarily so.

Normally when marking a cut on a tube I put the end of masking tape and carefully wrap it around eyeballing it as I go. I usually do a pretty good job of it but sometimes, well…



So, I marked the hole at its center. It doesn’t look like it but it is. Sorry about the out of focus but the camera is dying and wanted to focus on something else.



A 2” hose clamp at the mark and a sharpie around the perimeter of the tube.



A little mark to the left (1” from center) a little mark to the right, you do the Hokey-Pokey and...



you turn the beam about and that’s what it’s all about.

Again, the camera is having an off day, the part that wasn’t working is now working and the part that was working is not working. Murphy’s law again.

Lee

[hotrodsurplus]

Again, the camera is having an off day, the part that wasn’t working is now working and the part that was working is not working. Murphy’s law again.

The following isn't off-road related but it should help you and others when having this issue.

The camera is working fine. Cameras usually focus on a spot in the center of their view field. In that case the point was focusing on the ground--the ground is tack sharp. It's easy to work around, though.

Most autofocus cameras made in the last, oh, 40 years, have two shutter-button positions: focus and trigger. Pressing the button lightly focuses the camera; pressing the button the rest of the way triggers the shutter. So in that case point the center of the viewfinder at the part that you want to have in focus and let it lock in place. Then, while holding the button in that position, recompose the shot and pull the trigger.

Now, some cameras offer two (or more) focus options. One is AI Focus/Continuous Focus/Focus Tracking, where the camera will constantly focus on whatever is in the middle of the viewfinder (or wherever you set the focus area if you have the option). The above trick won't work when using that setting because the camera will just refocus when you recompose. Unfortunately most cameras come set from the factory that way. Luckily you can change that.

Instead, set the camera to what's usually called One Shot (the name varies by manufacturer but the idea is the same). In that setting the camera will simply lock on to and hold whatever focus it finds as long as you hold the shutter release button at the halfway setting. That way you can recompose at will and pull the trigger whenever you please. Just remember that if you move closer to or further away from the subject while you hold down the button you will lose the focus.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

You’re a correct as far as it did work like that when it was working correctly. It is the camera acting up in this case.

When it totally dies then I will use my new camera but I don't want to get it banged round or dirty yet.

[hotrodsurplus]

a brand new empty disc

Disc?

Well there's your problem right there! Not to harsh you but we had a Mavica like that in our offices in the 1990s. That camera is best suited for the Smithsonian. You know as well as anyone that I have a soft spot for obsolete things but electronics don't last forever. Get a throwaway digital. They're super cheap nowadays--I found 1,862 for less than $100 on Amazon. Get something with at least 5MP and that takes an SD card and stop torturing yourself.

I bought a new camera to replace it but I won’t use it in the garage until this one finally quits all together.

Really, is it worth the frustration? That's pennyfolly--like straightening used nails or re-folding toilet paper to use it again. Dude, you're worth having working tools.

I talked to the guys at Kenmore Camera and they are of the same mind that it is old and tired and probably not worth having it sent back to Sony for a health check-up.

Technology moves so quickly that it's not even worth sending in a non-pro camera after about three years. It costs nearly $200 to clean each of my bodies and I have to send them in nearly annually.

has ridden in the sand (in a padded bag) quite a bit.

Shock and vibration won't really damage a camera but dust and especially salt air will. Salt air gets everywhere. Temperature fluctuations cause air to condense inside the camera. I went through two Canon throwaways in the early '00s because they just fuzzed up from exposure to salt air.

Don't 'save that other camera for good.' We do a lot of estate sales. I can't tell you how many people die with a house full of new things that have gone obsolete from lack of use. They deprive themselves the pleasure of their possessions. Beat the hell out of that new rig and feel good about it. And throw away that Mavica so it can't tempt you. Life is too short to put up with junk tools.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Those buggy trips were to the ocean!