East coast woods/endurance racing

[Tom in PA]

Leather asked me to take some time and post about woods racing and my new car. Time is the key word here...I could talk for hours, type for days and I'm a relative newbie. I've been riding in the woods since I was a kid. Been doing wheel to wheel off road racing for over 10 years now. I've dabbled in some woods racing before but not much. With the decrease in local wheel to wheel racing and not enough time to travel to race, I decided to start doing more woods racing about 2 years ago. My other cars weren't really up to the task so I bought my buddy's car when he decided to get out of it. It's a one off frame he built himself. Survival is the name of the game so it's built like a tank. No idea what it weighs, but it's heavy. It's got a 2.4 ecotech with RDM brains/parts pushing it around with a one off custom header. It's a beast, tons of grunt. Power runs through an 094 with a mix of weddle/VW components. A arm front end, super long/wide rear arms with fox c/o, bypasses at each corner. Fortin 2.5 power rack handles the turns. Brakes are wildwood calipers with modified oem rotors (forget what they're off of). Lots of parts on the car are made not bought since he is a machinist by trade. Front hubs/uprights are one off/custom fabbed. I made some changes to the car when I got it like adding the method rims and General tires stuffed with tire balls to make finishing the race more likely (I need lots of help in that area:-)… Car just barely fits into my enclosed trailer. It's almost exactly the same size (wheelbase and width) as my super buggy.

First year of racing had lots of ups and downs, mostly downs:-( Lots of new car blues, some parts failures, some driver failures. Spent a bunch of time and money chasing them all down and finding/fixing the weak points. I did learn that trees do not move!!! There's no doubt the car is fast and likes to go fast Getting it to go fast through the slower, more technical stuff was where I and the car struggled some. The last race of the year I slid sideways into to tree, broke the rear arm heims (or did they break prior, causing me to hit the tree???? ). Drove the axle into the trans hard enough to tear the nose cone off the trans, bend the trans mounts and motor mounts, bent the shift rod and a bunch of other stuff. Tore down the trans to find a bad R&P. I think I may have driven the ring gear into the pinion when it hit. I had some spares, sent them to weddle to have them inspected and magnafluxed only to find out after that the won't reassemble the super diff... I didn't have the know how to set the clearances back up and couldn't find anyone who could point me in the right direction. I eventually called the guy who does my mendeola in the super buggy and asked him if he was willing to take on a basket case. He agreed but he's busy with his own race team and business. I was hoping to have the trans back to race last year but LOTS of stuff came up in life and getting back on the track was less of a priority for a while. I did finally get the arm, trans mounts, eng mounts and a bunch of other stuff fixed but the trans never made it's way home. I was too busy to even call about it. Actually at one point this winter I told him to not work on it for a while (long story). I'm slowly getting ready to put the car back together. I have to call and see if he's had time to dig into the multiple boxes of parts I sent him. I don't envy his job, basket cases are never fun. 20/20 hindsight I should have just had him do the diff but I thought it would be better to have him go through the trans. I was so busy I thought it would be faster at the time. Absolutely nothing against him, I'm still glad he was willing to help me. If I really wanted/needed it, I would have called him and let him know and I'm sure he'd have had it done. So...for now it's still in pieces. I did rebuild all of the shocks, changed the spring rates to soften things up some for the slower stuff, made some other changes in the interim. I've got 4 cars and the first local race is next week and not one of them is currently running/track worthy. I'll likely be a spectator again unless I decide to just stay home and work on the cars/house.

Speaking of races... The race this coming week it at Rausch Creek here in eastern PA near Tremont PA. Put on by Renegades Racing. Check them out on facebook. They're doing a killer job of brining off road racing to the east coast. They're based here in PA so there's a couple races here in PA (including a 150 mile race 10 miles from my house:-) but also in Tenn, West Virginia, NY, Sturgis, and KY. Rick is really working hard to bring some good racing with a variety of tracks and locations. Mostly through the woods, some rock gardens (limited classes can usually go around), very frequently lots of mud (rick is a rain magnet). Some tracks are fairly fast, some are rougher. Then there is Line Mountain. The grand daddy of off road racing in PA, probably the east coast- at least as far as woods/obstacle racing. It's the 50th anniversary this year so we're really hoping this covid thing quiets down so they can do it right. Line Mtn is an old track so it's got lots of rocks to contend with but a great bunch of folks that have been doing this for years and their families before them. It really is like a big family there. They have 3 races. the 3.5 miler, the coal bucket and the 7 miler. The 7 miler is usually the longest and roughest but the 3.5 and coal bucket have been catching up some years:-). The coal bucket is usually the fastest of the races so they moved it earlier in the year to help with dusty conditions they were having when it was being run in July. 3.5 miler usually June, 7 miler always September. There's also Jersey Shore PA where it's a combination of short course/woods where its a multi lap race with a large portion of the track snaking through the woods. It's a shorter faster race than the others. There is some other woods/obstacle racing but buggies aren't always allowed/invited so I'll hold off on those. There's still a wheel to wheel track locally but they're only holding one event per year recently. Then there is Rolling W Ranch in PIttsburgh. GREAT wheel to wheel track for buggies, trucks, jeeps, utv's, pilots, "rally cars". Family run track, very fast track. I love it there but it's a hike and there haven't been any super buggies running in recent years so I haven't been out in a couple years. Hoping to get out at least once this year.

Ok, getting tired of typing... Below I'll try to add a pic of the new car and hopefully a video from the first race 2 yrs ago. It's from a rear facing camera at AOAA- Anthracite outdoor adventure area-(prob 15 miles from my house). This was a race where the ultra 4's came to play and made it on to NBC sports with lots of cameras floating around, drones with camera's, etc. It was a fun track. Too bad they couldn't come to an agreement to make it a regular gig:-(

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[bbvideo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79TBmk2T8XM[/bbvideo]

Almost forgot. Line mountain does a short course thing as well, just not wheel to wheel. Here's an old one racing against a quad in the finals:

[bbvideo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QXkPp1iXaA[/bbvideo]

Tom

[Tom in PA]

If you're really bored and watch the aoaa video, ignore the section from about 12-14 minutes where I high centered the car then snubbed the engine about a minute later once I got going again. The guys behind me probably wanted to kill me.. Except a single prerun the day prior, that was the first time driving the car (unless you count driving it in the back yard)

BTW, I finally found the smileys again

Tom

[CentralWAbaja]

Thanks for the write up. Cool cars and fun to see buggys in the woods

[Leatherneck]

Tom that looks fun, you were getting some speed going on there too. First thought it was flat but there was a lot of terrain to climb. That looks fun. Keep us posted on the races and the car.

[Tom in PA]

The local stuff is all in the mountains. There area usually a couple climbs in each race. Some big and open, some smaller but winding up the hill through the trees. The track in the video had more open "roads" in sections than most tracks do. It was a fairly fast track but quite a bit of technical stuff. Keeping the car together through the end of the race is part of the challenge. It is very easy to overdrive the course and hurt the car. I know that all too well I do better if I can convince myself I just out for a joy ride and not in a race. It's harder to do than it sounds. Just gotta watch out for rocks, trees, ruts, mud holes, water crossings, drop offs, boulders, tree stumps, other vehicles, hazards hiding in the weeds along the trail, off camber situations, super slick clay, loose gravel and the biggest hazard of all...getting inside your own head (or letting other racers get in there).

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[Leatherneck]

Yeah, those are money shots! Lots of money to fix em. Yeah I forgot about the slick mud, still sounds fun though.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I see you are using the MII style of IFS. Looks to be stronger than some others I have seen. Nice looking rig when it isnt broken (sorry but I couldn't resist).

One of the problems with the use of spherical rod ends is the threading of the rod end into the tube so, allowing for adjustment, when you are putting loads on the suspension you are actually putting the threads on the rod ends and the threads in the tube in sheer loading in so many ways.

Lee

[Tom in PA]

It is fun but I spent a year doing nothing but wrenching on the car. I think I only finished one race that year. Through the year I tore every corner off the car at some point or another. Actually it was before the last race when one of my buddies commented I hadn't torn the left rear off the car yet, was today going to be the day. I think he jinxed me. It took all of my time and a lot of money to get through the year. To be honest it took a lot of wind out of my sails. I had also ignored a lot of other projects while getting through the season. Between those things it was several months before I even touched the car to start tearing it down. The kids joined the trap team, I picked up shooting trap with them, work got even busier than before and then I ran into issues getting the transmission finished...yep, car still isn't back together. It is much closer though. I've knocked out many of the little projects. Once back together I still have some power steering gremlins to chase down and some serious shock tuning to make it work better in the slower, tighter sections of the track. It's awesome at speed but has bad manners in the slow stuff. Large portions of the track are "slow stuff" however.

Speaking of slow stuff vs fast stuff, Renegades just announce a "short course" addition to some of their tracks. It's not short course racing in the traditional sense of the word. It's a mile or so of smother woods racing with less rocks, ruts, hill climbs combined with a section of open short course racing for a faster, smoother type of racing. Should be a blast. They're setting it up for buggies, sxs, 2wd trucks (including bro lights). They're having at least one round here in PA I'm hoping to make. It'll be like 1.5 hrs mini endurance style so I can't use the super buggy, tank isn't big enough. The new car will likely be a better option but if I set it up for the slow stuff, it won't be quite as happy at speed. We'll see. I'd encourage anyone that lives in the eastern half of the US to look into it.

Tom

[Tom in PA]

Lee,

You are right, the rod ends become the weak link. I've upgraded nearly every rod end on the car to FK's. And then the strongest version I could find in the sizes I needed. When he built the car he bought a kit that was designed for another purpose that had left and right hand ends in it. It was a reasonable way to save money but it lead to having to carry a lot of different rod ends in the trailer for repairs. Over time I've been trying to switch all the rod ends to the same size, type. It leads to a few being sized larger than necessary for their job but it's worth it. I wish I could find an easy way to make the design stronger, esp the rear arms that also use rod ends. I can't upgrade them to larger joints without some serious rework of the mounts and arms. I considered an inner pivot and outer rod end (or vice versa) to keep some adjustability and gain some strength.

This variation of IFS is much stronger than many others, certainly needed to withstand the abuse it takes. Boxed front arms with some variation of captive joint would be stronger but a bigger fabricating challenge. The guy that built the car may be up to it but I think it's beyond my fabricating skills. CAD would certainly come in handy for that. At least one of the cars racing Renegades is using that, looks bad a**. There are some truly talented fabricators out there. I'm not one of them. I can get by but it takes me much longer to get things done since it's not what I do for a living/hobby full time.

Tom

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I haven't been able to find anything with good information on the different types of threads and grain direction on fasteners but basically, when they are forming the fasteners and squishing and stretching of the materials they are also trying to get the grain direction parallel to the length of the fasteners.

There are basically two types of threading: cut threads as in a lathe or tap and rolling threads during forming (there are videos on this available). Cutting cuts the grain while rolling the threads compresses the grain: rolling is stronger. The threaded part of a fastener is designed for linear use while the shank is designed to work with the shear loads as well as the linear loads.

I started out as a "board drafter' but as things change I used then taught basic (2D) CAD at work but, at the time I didn't do much 3D as the discussion between CAD and CAM was not ready yet (CAM is Computer Aided Manufacturing) but, to over simplify, CAM takes the needed part of CAD info and converts it to making parts. The different CAD programs are much more complicated than most people hear about but that is not what we are talking about.

As I have said before, I was lucky to be around and be able to listen to things as they changed so radically. Fabrication is a learned process in most for most of us but there are some who are naturally gifted with that skill.

Lee

[Tom in PA]

My brother basically works as a fabricator. He just looks at something and then builds what he needs, or makes a jig to build it. He's been building things from wood or metal his whole life both as hobbies and for a living. Needless to say, he's much better at it than I am.

Yeah, the threads make for a weak link. Not the best application of the rod ends. You can compensate by using bigger shafts but that only gets you so far. The problem is, when one gives out, it frequently takes other parts with it.... Keeping the lock nuts tight is also an issue. They frequently find a way to get loose.

Tom

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Keeping the lock nuts tight is also an issue. They frequently find a way to get loose.
Tom

One of the reasons for the locking nut to be backed up by a jam nut. I don't remember having double nutting that much but I do remember lectures about it at my desk.

I have been working on a different style of Truss/Kaffer bar arrangement but so far I have only roughly figured out the length of the truss bars but not with both a locking nut backed up by the thinner jam nut; this is so the bar locking nut will not back up and get sloppy.

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With all the jiggling around of the rear suspension and trans mounts I felt that jam nuts were needed but in this picture they are not shown but I do have them.

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My turning brake rods are double nutted at each end.

When working over most of the 34 years I dealt with covering loading anywhere from 3Gs to 9Gs and a couple of them with a crib added so (I was told) the 9G loading was somewhere around 12 G's. It wasn't my idea either .

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

One other thing I thought about last night was that may help help things that the nut and jam nut may add some additional strength to the threaded portion of the spherical rod end they cover. Not 100% sure as I don't remember this ever coming up in discussion (never would have been allowed on what I was working on) but it sounds like there might be some additional support in the areas the nuts cover as long as they were tight to each other and the A-arm.

Lee

[Tom in PA]

Lee, thanks for the thoughts. There may not be room for a jam nut on a couple of the joints since I tried to set them up with the least amount of threads exposed as possible. I guess I could trim the boss back a bit if they're helpful. Tried Loctite, no go there...

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Lee, thanks for the thoughts. There may not be room for a jam nut on a couple of the joints since I tried to set them up with the least amount of threads exposed as possible. I guess I could trim the boss back a bit if they're helpful. Tried Loctite, no go there...

Jam nuts are an unusual thing: you can use a standard nut as a jam nut, you can buy jam nuts which are usually thinner in thickness than a standard nut or, like you say you could machine a standard nut to be thinner or make a nut that is longer but then it is the tempering that needs to be done. For what it is worth, there are longer nuts (thickness) than most people know about but unless you have access to the standards one would never know about it as most places can't afford to stock things they so seldom have call for.

Tom's spherical rod ends copy.jpg

Looking at your pix it does look like you might have room for a jam nut but it also looks like you are breaking things at the end of the lock nut or towards the end of the threads as you say, the distance is so small.

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This is the front end of one of the guys I know. Similar to yours using spherical rod ends (this is used on the sand only) but it does have front steer R&P and electric power steering also.

Lee