200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

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Schweg
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Schweg » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:51 pm

Wally,

Any information on turbo sizes or engine cc or injector sizes?

I’m working on a compound set up for my 1600.

Schweg

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:03 am

Schweg wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:51 pm
Wally,

Any information on turbo sizes or engine cc or injector sizes?

I’m working on a compound set up for my 1600.

Schweg
I think he uses a GT15 as the primary (small) turbo but not sure on the big one as it was a china copy iirc.

At 215hp he was at 85% on his 330cc injectors, but I think those injectors are very small for turbo anyways, but thats just my feeling.
I use 450cc's on the 1200 atm (intended for the turbo use later and 200+hp).

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brewsy
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by brewsy » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:05 am

Wally wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:13 pm
Eddie: the 1300 is a single twin scroll turbo (from a Mini).. :wink:
This Hendrik fella is reading my mind 8)

But yes, next year a turbo will sit on this one (hence the section this post is in :mrgreen: )
MMMMmmm, MORE compound turbo I hope....
First I'll try to retard the cam a bunch to see if it will pull a little more up top and to get a good torque chart from my usual dyno place (you know the one :wink: )

Good eye Marc, (Thanks :D ) but sorry, the owner (Hendrik) doesn't do website write ups afaik..
I did make a picture when he took the rear apron off though 8)
There was a lot more in it, but his injectors maxxed out and the clutch slipped heavily..
Thats a busy engine bay. Looks more like a WC 6 cylinder Porker than AC VW :lol:
The primary turbo (the one closest to the inlet valves) looks tiny in comparison to the secondary one! (dont worry I know its all about PR's)
Hendrik if you read this PLEASE can we have a bit of detail on the setup? Im really interested in the wastegating that youre trying and how you manage boost creep etc? Also what size primary WG are you using? Im assuming it must be big as its got to handle most of the engines exhaust flow once the primary has spun up to full speed.

Wally, from what the Internet says 6K+ rpm is a lot for the 1200 crank. Was it rpm that broke your last 1200 TT crank or do I recall an oiling issue that starved it of oil?

Cheers,
Marc

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:17 am

brewsy wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:05 am

Wally, from what the Internet says ...

Cheers,
Marc
:roll:

:lol: :lol:

The 1200 Challenge guys run these out to 7+ K RPM, so I don't think they are that weak. I don't think we/they ever really broke a crank. Oiling issues can be more of a concern, but even that can be managed with today's knowledge and experience of the type1 platform.

I had a bearing issue from not polishing the crank well enough after I carved some oil paths (a la the 69 crank) on the journal surfaces.. :oops:
The same (repolished!) crank from back then is now in there again btw, so there you go :wink:

I am very excited you guys are planning compound set-ups!
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction
T1T 1,2ltr Challenge engine
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks

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MegaRookie
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by MegaRookie » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:28 am

Very nice results on the dyno Walter! Especially because its a 1200cc with a 110 cam! I have seen a lot of engines (also bigger like my own first 1600) do a lot less with that cam.

Are you already working on putting the turbo on there? :D And do you have any idea of how much pressure you will boost it?

Mark

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:39 am

I wanted to try something extra and also because I thought the other dyno might have been rather optimistic on my run.
So I changed out the excenter rings on the cam gears. It was 2 degrees advanced. Some site mentioned advancing cams gave more torque down low..., so I went the other direction and put on 4 degrees retarded: a 6 degree change.

So, different dyno's, but also way different cam timing. Strangly I noticed WOT needed less fuel for the same AFR's in the map...suggestion it was making less power? It could also be that it just wasn't tuned properly yet (which is pretty much the case LOL).
I know 'my own' dyno is pretty accurate, but it only made 70hp there with the 4 degrees retarded setting, albeit still at 6400RPM...

https://youtu.be/WCt_hOuxsVs

Anybody that can confirm what retarding the cam does? I read everywhere it does shift powerband a little (few hundred RPM) upwards, but anyone have concisive data or is everyone reading the same as my on 'the internet' :roll:

Cheers,
Walter
Last edited by Wally on Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction
T1T 1,2ltr Challenge engine
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks

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Chip Birks
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:49 am

As far as I understand, retarding is supposed to move the powerband further up the rpm range. It has a tendency to kill bottom end power though. I've done a similar experiment with my big engine. But no dyno testing, just seat of the pants feel. I noticed that the car really struggled to get out of it's own way, and seemed to want to pull longer. Than previously. I switched it back to my typical advanced setup after about a day that way. I was told it was a drag racer trick to retarded cams to try to get a little more mph out of a race car that was nosing over on the top end because it was running out of the power band.

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:16 pm

Thanks Chip! I also think my exhaust is horribly big for this engine and cam but it might just be what it is with the CR and all.
MegaRookie wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:28 am

Are you already working on putting the turbo on there? :D And do you have any idea of how much pressure you will boost it?

Mark
Tnx Mark, but results (other then max RPM for max power) are a little disappointing tbh.

Still, good to know what it is. I am tempted to wrench a little more and do the turbo set-up right away before proceeding with the type 4, but I want to do some EBC tuning and that is scary with the type 4 turbo on the road, so better to learn it with the low power 1200.
Nothing done yet, I need to learn to weld some alu piping (for the intercooler) and find some Garret GT17 flanges (weird ones...) first.

We'll see, first a small holiday :wink:
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction
T1T 1,2ltr Challenge engine
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks

Clonebug
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Clonebug » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:22 pm

Wally wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:13 pm
Eddie: the 1300 is a single twin scroll turbo (from a Mini).. :wink:
But yes, next year a turbo will sit on this one (hence the section this post is in :mrgreen: )
First I'll try to retard the cam a bunch to see if it will pull a little more up top and to get a good torque chart from my usual dyno place (you know the one :wink: )

Good eye Marc, but sorry, the owner (Hendrik) doesn't do website write ups afaik..
I did make a picture when he took the rear apron off though 8)

There was a lot more in it, but his injectors maxxed out and the clutch slipped heavily..

Image
I would love to pick the brain of this guy concerning the twin turbo setup......I would buy the beer even........ :wink:
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Clonebug
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Clonebug » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:25 pm

Wally wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:39 am
I wanted to try something extra and also because I thought the other dyno might have been rather optimistic on my run.
So I changed out the excenter rings on the cam gears. It was 2 degrees advanced. Some site mentioned advancing cams gave more torque down low..., so I went the other direction and put on 4 degrees retarded: a 6 degree change.

So, different dyno's, but also way different cam timing. Strangly I noticed WOT needed less fuel for the same AFR's in the map...suggestion it was making less power? It could also be that it just wasn't tuned properly yet (which is pretty much the case LOL).
I know 'my own' dyno is pretty accurate, but it only made 70hp there with the 4 degrees retarded setting, albeit still at 6400RPM...

https://youtu.be/WCt_hOuxsVs

Anybody that can confirm what retarding the cam does? I read everywhere it does shift powerband a little (few hundred RPM) upwards, but anyone have concisive data or is everyone reading the same as my on 'the internet' :roll:

Cheers,
Walter
That is a very interesting result Wally.......almost a 25% change with cam retard........wow!!!
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:31 pm

The totally different dyno’s with possible wrong Dyno result at one because of a spike reading or so, make the first one pretty useless tbh.
So, pls be very carefull with conclusions from this.

Bruce.m
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Bruce.m » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:37 am

Regarding advance / retard of cams.

I did a bit of research recently & concluded the stock (split duration) Type4 cam is 2 degrees advanced. Wondered if it would improve much if retarded back to “straight up”? Given its rep as a hot running camshaft? A slightly offset crank timing gear key could used.

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:22 pm

Bruce.m wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:37 am
Regarding advance / retard of cams.

I did a bit of research recently & concluded the stock (split duration) Type4 cam is 2 degrees advanced. Wondered if it would improve much if retarded back to “straight up”?
Actually, I think very likely not..
The 6 degree difference I did hardly made a feelable difference tbh...
So, 2 degrees will not 'change' the cam is my thinking now. More difference would be more duration imo. Maybe 2 degrees more duration would make more difference then 2 degrees shifted either way. Just my opinion at the moment :wink:
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction
T1T 1,2ltr Challenge engine
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks

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buguy
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by buguy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:45 pm

I was always told that 2 degrees equals 250 rpm difference. Retarded moves it higher in the rev range, advanced lower in the rev range. Never seen any actual data though. Too bad you wouldn't have been on the same dyno. That would be some valuable info!

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Wally
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Re: 200hp 1200DP Turbo 'Challenger motor'

Post by Wally » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:38 pm

Yeah, I agree, but making two dyno appointments is really time consuming and hard to do 'in between' things (and not free).

Anyways, the turbo planning is underway with the 'usual' welding of the wastegate :mrgreen:

Image
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction
T1T 1,2ltr Challenge engine
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks

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