Cheap ebay intercoolers (Now just my tuning thread)

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.
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Schweg
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Schweg » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:39 pm

If you want to get to a 50/50 mix heet in the yellow bottle is 100% methonal. If you ever need it.

Coyotemutt
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:53 pm

Schweg wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:39 pm
If you want to get to a 50/50 mix heet in the yellow bottle is 100% methonal. If you ever need it.
Needed it today and got it. Mixed up some 30-70 with distilled water to get me by for now. My gut tells me I need to make sure my actual AFR is around 12.5 or so all the way up to 9psi AND THEN add enough injection to bring it down... a point maybe? Just a guess.

And then at that point maybe add timing. I can't hear knock for poop though so I'm probably going to just stay very conservative there.

Clonebug
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Clonebug » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:23 pm

I never used W/I when I had a blow through carb. I added it when I installed FI so I couldn't tell you what the AFR did.
I can tell you that my VE table is almost the same fuel wise at 265-280 kpa as it is at 100 kpa due to the W/I.
My fuel map has a lot more fuel added at high load mid rpm and then tapers off as boost and rpm increase.
When I go through the gears though...my AFR stays pretty steady at 12.0 and maybe a little lower. It used to be a little leaner but since I smoothed out my VE table it's gotten a little richer. Autotune will take some of that out as I rerun it.
W/I would definitely make it interesting with a carb......If your engine still makes power and doesn't sag at the richer AFR's I would leave it for a while and make sure you aren't getting detonation still. The extra fuel will help keep the mixture cool.
If not.....it might be easier to turn up the boost than to rejet it.......you know you want to and why mess with the jetting if you plan to turn it up later???
12.5 is not rich enough once you get into higher boost.....12.0 and even 11.0-11.5 would be safer.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Coyotemutt
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:01 am

Clonebug wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:23 pm
I never used W/I when I had a blow through carb. I added it when I installed FI so I couldn't tell you what the AFR did.
I can tell you that my VE table is almost the same fuel wise at 265-280 kpa as it is at 100 kpa due to the W/I.
My fuel map has a lot more fuel added at high load mid rpm and then tapers off as boost and rpm increase.
When I go through the gears though...my AFR stays pretty steady at 12.0 and maybe a little lower. It used to be a little leaner but since I smoothed out my VE table it's gotten a little richer. Autotune will take some of that out as I rerun it.
W/I would definitely make it interesting with a carb......If your engine still makes power and doesn't sag at the richer AFR's I would leave it for a while and make sure you aren't getting detonation still. The extra fuel will help keep the mixture cool.
If not.....it might be easier to turn up the boost than to rejet it.......you know you want to and why mess with the jetting if you plan to turn it up later???
12.5 is not rich enough once you get into higher boost.....12.0 and even 11.0-11.5 would be safer.
That's all very reasonable. I went from the 160 mains to 155s after adding the water injection setup but I think I'll put the 160s back in. The 160s stayed around the low 11s AFR without the water-meth. Once it kicks on though I see an immediate richening. It's like flipping a switch and the car feels soggy. It sounds great that way though and the heads and intake stay nice and cool. I know I could get alot more power at 10psi if the water wasn't drowning it though.

Here's a question. I know IATs will be insane at 10 psi without any sort of cooling, but is it safe to just pull 3rd gear up that far without the WI just to make sure the base fueling is correct? I mean just a single pull and then let off as soon as I hit full boost. The reason I ask is that I know for a fact the wideband showed 10.3:1 at 9PSI with the water-meth working and then without it my AFR got dangerously lean by 6 or so PSI (13:1 or worse).

Clonebug
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Clonebug » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:59 am

13.0:1 is detonation territory... along with some say the hottest fuel burn AFR.
I know I had detonation at 13.0:1 and no WI unless I pulled the timing back.
10 lbs. boost without cooling will give you about 165*F IAT's at 80 Degrees ambient. 188*F at 100 degrees ambient....Remember the 130*F rule I mentioned earlier. 180 degrees would probably need 20 degrees timing or less.
I've been where you are at and it is frustrating because you want to turn it up but need more info to do that. I lasted one week before I tossed the distributor and installed a crank trigger and MS-1 for ignition only.
I still fought detonation mostly in the summer with high ambient temps. Cool spring and fall temps were a lot easier to make bigger boost numbers.

Looking at "Devils's Own" website calculator it looks like a 1.0 gph nozzle would probably be enough...except they are out of stock.
My guess is it would possibly ping a tiny bit at full load mid range rpm right when full boost comes on.
For my engine that was as low as 3600 rpm when I was limited at 13.0 lbs boost. It ramps up fast but it takes to 4000 rpm to get to 20 plus lbs boost.

As I stated earlier....it's quite amazing how much fueling you get from the alcohol. You could try just straight water with the nozzle you have and have it kick on around 6.0 lbs boost to see what happens.
I found I needed it to kick on earlier in the summer on long pulls on a 6% grade and using a 1.0 gph nozzle to keep it cool enough along with not letting it blubber from too much water.
It's still at a critical limit and only really tuned for local driving. Things change quickly once the ambient temps or altitude go up. I found I had to drop my timing once ambients got to 95-100 degrees when going to California.
I'm going to try adjusting my boost temp retard for cruise by taking out a degree or two once the intake temps hit over 100 degrees. When cruising through California it's not uncommon to see 95-106 degrees ambients and just going through the turbo it can raise the IAT's to 120 plus degrees without even boosting.
I never get that high even at full boost since using staged injection along with the Audi Intercooler.
Cruising I see 96 degree IAT's with ambients aroud 70*F and at max boost in fourth gear it finally hits 98 degrees IAT's. Third gear dips to 84.5 degrees and up to 92 degrees.
I have adjusted my advance down for the Cali cruise and never really raised it back up so there is a little safety built in.....I'm just going to keep it that way since I'm not trying to win races at this point.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Coyotemutt
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:04 pm

I gotcha. So if I try straight water I wont see the AFR change but I still get the cooling benefit. So then I can tune for my target afr and then add the meth back in for the added octane/knock resistence.

Clonebug
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Clonebug » Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:47 pm

Water doesn't burn so there should be no AFR change......unless IAT's affect the AFR...Hotter air is less dense and therefore can hold less fuel for a given AFR.
Since you can't log anything you have to eliminate each issue separately.
That's why everyone says FI is so expensive....until they realize all the advantages that you gain not including fuel and ignition control.
Logging a drive can tell you a lot about your engine and is invaluable when trying to extract hp from a boosted engine.
The biggest issue with boost is the addiction......you can never get enough......you either upgrade your fueling and ignition....or buy new engine parts when you blow it to Kingdom Come.....cuz you won't be able to stop........ :cry: :cry: :roll: :lol:
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Coyotemutt
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:48 pm

Naw, I'm pretty set at 10psi. My goal now is to extract reliability, driveability and mpg out of the whole system. Today's drive went REALLY well. I made 9psi uphill in 4th without any issues and the afr stayed at 11.3ish. I must have mixed in a hair less methanol than I thought.

At 10psi the engine didnt "feel" right so I backed off. I need to double check but I think my boost retard brings me down to 20* from 28* by 6psi. I need to get a smidge more retard than that at 10psi I think. Gotta find a similar length spring to the one I used, but stiffer. That would compress the advance spring a bit more and give me a couple more degrees on the retard side. Or just run less total advance timing... but that's too easy.

Edit: Scratch that. I get a solid 10 degrees retard. So I should be at 17 or 18 at 10psi.

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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:08 pm

After taking 5 days to go pack packing and hunting deer with my longbow I had a much clearer head. I discovered some very small boost leaks and fixed them. Also found a small one UNDER MY FUEL PUMP! So, now that I have a new o-ring on the shaft and that whole assembly is deburred and polished, I hold 11.6ish afr up to my goal of 10psi. It breaks up a bit as it comes in to 10psi though. Advance should be 18° at that point.

Should I maybe shrink my plug gap?
Maybe reduce timing further? (Is it a miss or a knock? Feels like a miss)
Double check that my methanol isn't just hiding a lean spot up top?

I'm so close to done! It's great! I'll add all the tuning details to the kadron thread later so maybe it'll help the next nut who wants to force feed kadrons.

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Schweg
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Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Schweg » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:38 pm

Sounds like spark blow out tighten up the plug gap

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buguy
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by buguy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:54 pm

Unlikely to be spark blowout at 10 psi. But you never know, i don't know what your gap is now. 18 degrees of timing isn't much. I wouldn't run it lower myself. You can't feel knock, so that's not what your getting there (not saying there isn't knock).

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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:31 pm

Can knock sound like hissing? Above 7psi I have my water meth going and I'm at about 11.6:1 afr and I assume I'm hearing the whoosh of the turbine but could it be a whole lot of knock?

I dont know why it would be called knock or ping if it sounds like hissing though.

I've obviously experienced detonation but could never hear it.

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buguy
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by buguy » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:57 pm

Yeah it sounds like a loose piston. Definitely not a hiss.
What is your compression ratio?

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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by Coyotemutt » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:37 pm

buguy wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:57 pm
Yeah it sounds like a loose piston. Definitely not a hiss.
What is your compression ratio?
You've asked before, hahah. Its 8.2 or 8.3. Forget which at the moment

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buguy
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Re: Cheap ebay intercoolers

Post by buguy » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:24 am

I can barely remember what my own is! I would think at that compression you should be fairly safe on detonation at 10 psi. With the W/I i would say for sure you are. I built a tube with a cap that i tapped and glued in an air chuck. That way i can blow air into the system to listen for leaks. It helps alot. I found like 9 or something on mine when i built it.

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