Getting weight over the front for grip?
- DORIGTT
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:01 am
Getting weight over the front for grip?
Hey all,
I'm looking for ideas beyond battery up front for more weight over the front end to help with grip / bite up front. This is a Balljoint front car.
Thanks,
I'm looking for ideas beyond battery up front for more weight over the front end to help with grip / bite up front. This is a Balljoint front car.
Thanks,
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- Posts: 206
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 2:52 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
Dry sump tank, oil cooler, oil filter, beam stiffeners to both top and bottom beam, white line 'over the top' sway bar and mounts, fuel pumps and filters, roll cage extension through to the top of the shock mounts, steel fenders...... take the spare tyre out and add a bag of crushed rock
Also work on optimum alignment, plenty of toe in and caster and lighten the rotating parts, wheels, hubs, calipers, disks etc so the wheels respond better to the changing surface and stay gripping.
And take weight out of the back to improve balance, glass rear fenders, glass rear apron, carbon fibre bumper and engine lid, light engine components etc.
Have you read the weight saving thread on the Cal look lounge? Buy a pedestal drill and lighten everything at the back. Light CV's, rifle drill axles stub axles and torsion bars. Hollow rear sway bar. Buy Titanium fasteners. Some of this is pie in the sky but it will get you thinking.
Also work on optimum alignment, plenty of toe in and caster and lighten the rotating parts, wheels, hubs, calipers, disks etc so the wheels respond better to the changing surface and stay gripping.
And take weight out of the back to improve balance, glass rear fenders, glass rear apron, carbon fibre bumper and engine lid, light engine components etc.
Have you read the weight saving thread on the Cal look lounge? Buy a pedestal drill and lighten everything at the back. Light CV's, rifle drill axles stub axles and torsion bars. Hollow rear sway bar. Buy Titanium fasteners. Some of this is pie in the sky but it will get you thinking.
- V8Nate
- Posts: 755
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
I have all my air ride crap up front along with a diesel heater which gave me some extra weight up front
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
This is a big question than need some preliminary questions asked such as what is your rig, "why" and what is your rig going to be used for as there is/might be a bunch or thing that can or probably should not be done.
Remember that "Bugs" were not designed for what a lot of us use them for so some "fixing" might need to be done especially in the front end.
Lee
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- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
If I was adding weight I would make sure it does not have the capability of moving around (fluid but in this case I do not mean a liquid but more of a loose meaning). You already have fuel tank up there occupying at least part of the area.
The front end of a bug is not the strongest thing on the pan and I think it is safe to say that the frame head has minimal support. The beam mount is held in front by an attachment to the main pan by spot-welds. The ends of the beam are not supported so whacks at each end of the beam can cause things to flex. This shows the commercial pieces that can be added to help the ends of the beam to stay in place. The kit comes with 4 arms, two upper and two lower; the upper ones bolt to the firewall and, if you have a cage the connection to it could be done for additional support.
There are additional things that could be done to change any "push" you might be getting. Remember to play safe and play with the car itself safely.
Lee
The front end of a bug is not the strongest thing on the pan and I think it is safe to say that the frame head has minimal support. The beam mount is held in front by an attachment to the main pan by spot-welds. The ends of the beam are not supported so whacks at each end of the beam can cause things to flex. This shows the commercial pieces that can be added to help the ends of the beam to stay in place. The kit comes with 4 arms, two upper and two lower; the upper ones bolt to the firewall and, if you have a cage the connection to it could be done for additional support.
There are additional things that could be done to change any "push" you might be getting. Remember to play safe and play with the car itself safely.
Lee
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
Since I am working on a buggy and what I am doing connects to the front end of a BJ buggy I took these pix.
This is looking down at the front of the pan showing the mount for the beam. This is a buggy and I have done a bunch of stuff to it but the mount for the beam is still stock. The outboard supports in the last post are shown in these two pictures. The distance form the front of the beam to the firewall is roughly 15" if that helps any.
Again, this shows the mount for the lower support. On the front of the main part of the pan there are two uniquely slotted holes that are used to connect the body to the pan and the underside of those slotted bolt holes is where the lower support tube is connected to. Since I am currently working on the driver's side the supports are currently only on that side.
When I built the body lift I did add the slotted holes (I have pix of how I handled it if needed) to connect the beam to the pan with. Since this is a glass bodied car a lot of this is necessary. Years ago I got talking to a guy who owned a VW scrap yard and he told me that glass cars (no steel body) had a tendency to bend the tunnel between the Napoleon's hat and the shifter hole location which tells me that there is some loading going through the stock body from the front beam mount.
Since this is a sand use buggy the additional support is necessary but even on the street; with curbs, parking lot access ramps, the different sizes of "turtles" are needed and, it wouldn't surprise me, that for Autocrossing or track racing of any kind the end supports are also a good idea to have.
Lee
This is looking down at the front of the pan showing the mount for the beam. This is a buggy and I have done a bunch of stuff to it but the mount for the beam is still stock. The outboard supports in the last post are shown in these two pictures. The distance form the front of the beam to the firewall is roughly 15" if that helps any.
Again, this shows the mount for the lower support. On the front of the main part of the pan there are two uniquely slotted holes that are used to connect the body to the pan and the underside of those slotted bolt holes is where the lower support tube is connected to. Since I am currently working on the driver's side the supports are currently only on that side.
When I built the body lift I did add the slotted holes (I have pix of how I handled it if needed) to connect the beam to the pan with. Since this is a glass bodied car a lot of this is necessary. Years ago I got talking to a guy who owned a VW scrap yard and he told me that glass cars (no steel body) had a tendency to bend the tunnel between the Napoleon's hat and the shifter hole location which tells me that there is some loading going through the stock body from the front beam mount.
Since this is a sand use buggy the additional support is necessary but even on the street; with curbs, parking lot access ramps, the different sizes of "turtles" are needed and, it wouldn't surprise me, that for Autocrossing or track racing of any kind the end supports are also a good idea to have.
Lee
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Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
The tube down the outside of the pan where the body normally bolts to is something I added.
Lee
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- DORIGTT
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:01 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
Hey Lee,
It's a 1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe that's going to be used for Auto-x, time trials and HPDE's here in the Portland market.
It's a 1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe that's going to be used for Auto-x, time trials and HPDE's here in the Portland market.
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
You still have some of the same problems. Putting weight on the front but attaching it properly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_versus_weight) might be a proper thing to do but there are the other things I mentioned about that can also affect/effect the balance of a vehicle. Since I haven't played or be around Ghias' I am not sure if their pans are similar or different but it was my understanding that they were similar (if wrong I apologize).
I tried to play with racing years ago but the foreign Automobile business, at that time, were just starting to muscle in racing and changed the rules to their balance (in my case they stopped the shot peening of axles that was done on certain cars [of which I had] to eliminate breakage) by getting rid of certain cars that were better than they were (at the time).
I was trying to point out that there are a lot of other things that could done that also could affect/effect a vehicle and that they should be looked into before adding weight in one particular area (one of the things I learned when I was interested in getting into racing).
I hope this helps not defer your fun.
Lee
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
I have a Super Beetle so this doesn't translate 100%, but I had planned to make a heavy steel spare tire mount(within reason) in addition to moving the battery up front.
H2OSB
H2OSB
- ps2375
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:04 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
I have a Std Bug that I auto-x, and it turns in quite well. Even better with the 100 tread wear tires and with the shocks set a little firmer. I go to a setting of 6 out of 20 clicks. Too much and it starts to porpoise. Not sure if a Ghia has less or more weight up front.
- DORIGTT
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:01 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
The Ghia probably weighs a touch more than the Beetle...just guessing ps2375. I'm running 200 treadler tires for the first round of testing and evaluations.
H20SB, I've got a Boxster spare tire up front for added weight, and definitely will be putting the battery there.
I considered putting the dry sump tank up front, but it was recommended not to put it there.
H20SB, I've got a Boxster spare tire up front for added weight, and definitely will be putting the battery there.
I considered putting the dry sump tank up front, but it was recommended not to put it there.
- ps2375
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:04 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
I think maybe some minor weight shifting could do you some good, but getting the suspension setup well will will give you more returns on your effort and possibly surprise you. I have neg camber in the front, enough that someone at an auto-x actually commented that you don't see it often in a Bug. Maybe 1-2 degrees. And for higher speed events, some air management (i.e. an airdam and/or spoiler might be in order).
- theKbStockpiler
- Posts: 595
- Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 am
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
Porshe has a model with two batteries in the trunk.Keep the gas tank full?
Super beetle with attitude
- FJCamper
- Moderator
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- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:19 pm
Re: Getting weight over the front for grip?
Experience Speaking -- weight redistribution on a Ghia
We run a very serious 1970 Ghia in Historic Sportscar Racing. The only glass in the car is the windshield. The rear window is thin Lexan. No window winders in the doors. No passenger seat. Drivers seat is aluminum. We do have a 3-gal dry sump oil tank in the right rear, very low, which is behind the passenger seat location. We have a light, single hoop roll bar with six location points. The battery is in the very bottom of the spare tire well, and the 8-gallon ATL fuel cell is mounted as far forward as we can push it. Obviously all sound deadening material in the body and headliner area is gone.
Left and right door panels are aluminum. We do use a stock front bumper but no rear bumper. Keep as much weight inside the wheelbase as possible.
None of this is unique, but very effective.
We run a very serious 1970 Ghia in Historic Sportscar Racing. The only glass in the car is the windshield. The rear window is thin Lexan. No window winders in the doors. No passenger seat. Drivers seat is aluminum. We do have a 3-gal dry sump oil tank in the right rear, very low, which is behind the passenger seat location. We have a light, single hoop roll bar with six location points. The battery is in the very bottom of the spare tire well, and the 8-gallon ATL fuel cell is mounted as far forward as we can push it. Obviously all sound deadening material in the body and headliner area is gone.
Left and right door panels are aluminum. We do use a stock front bumper but no rear bumper. Keep as much weight inside the wheelbase as possible.
None of this is unique, but very effective.