upright turbo build

[Piledriver]

From previous actual experience an early shroud without early cooler complete with Upright Sharpbuilt kit and modified stock T4 bottom tins running bypass thermo fan ran cooler than 1915cc type 1 preceding it.
Seems the early cooler just got in the way of airflow hence almost always overheating #3 cylinder and the progress modification to a doghouse for the later engines.

That the Sharpbuilt works on the T4 is no surprise, T4 has close to 50% more cooling capacity, including the cooler.
The non-dogouse shroud + oil cooler info came from comments about testing by Jake ages ago.

Thinking about it, you are right, it probably doesn't matter a rats ass on a T4, if anything it will be overcooled, based on my experience with my sons car and the 2L motor and cali cooling setup in Dallas in summer.

On a high compression close to the edge NA build, maybe.

Its an interesting question, I have plenty of TCs and a good datalogger setup now, perhaps I'll gather ^ post some data this spring.

[tonyorlo]

Ive kinda wanted to avoid using an external cooler. The more lines and fittings the greater chance of a leak.

Im going to sound dumb, but an early cooler, does it fit inside the fanshroud?

[Piledriver]

Ive kinda wanted to avoid using an external cooler. The more lines and fittings the greater chance of a leak.

Im going to sound dumb, but an early cooler, does it fit inside the fanshroud?

Yes, it fits inside.

I still recommend a doghouse setup and matching T1 cooler with an external oil thermostat if you want onboard oil cooling.
The airflow balance comments assumed you were only using the early cooler as a calibrated air duct restriction of sorts, it does heat up the air to 3/4 if you use it as an oil cooler as stock early T1.

It can be set up full flow either Cali style or inverted Lociero (DTM) style.

I did the doghouse>T4 cooler mod and now think it is probably not very helpful, as the fan housing will pass the same volume of cooling air through either. I'm using a T1 cooler on my T4 in my Squareback w/o issues.(for AC compressor clearance)

I do not recommend using the T4s oil cooler location boss as the source + return for an oil cooler unless the oiling system is bone stock, 26mm pump, stock clearances etc. There are better ways to do it.

If the pump etc are all ~stock you can duct the oil cooler air to the T4 cooler in the stock location, I didn't like the cooler exposed that close to the body in an accident so didn't go there.

If you use the proper lines and clamps, leaks are a non issue.

I used hydraulic hose and brass fittings, you could also spend a bit more and use hydraulic 45 degree swaged fittings on spots that need to be regularly removed. MANY shops and even parts stores here also fab hydraulic lines.
(3000 PSI braided SS in a rubber jacket for a fraction of the cost of braided SS "performance" bling hose)

[tonyorlo]

Yeah Ive had some hoses made for power steering at a local hydraulic shop, it fit and sealed way better than the fancy expensive braided hose.

Ive done a little reading, and it looks like Type 1 rods big end dia is the same as type 4s? The type 4s are wider though, is there an easy solution to that? The pin dia. is smaller, but Weisco should be able to make pistons for that.

[Piledriver]

Piston guided rods have been proven in many forms of racing and by herds of Volvos for decades.

A 66 crank, std T1 rods and Mahle Bs just about bolts together with a ~stock deck height for a T4.

The 2L journal is only 50mm. Not a big fan, but it allowed the 2L to use the same crank forging as the 1.7/1.8.

[tonyorlo]

Interesting. I've never heard of that before. Did a quick google search, and it seems like the biggest issue with doing that is oiling?

I'm guessing weisco can make that width to what ever specs I need.

I'd like to use my 66mm stroke crank, but I'd probably have $2-300 in replacing the bolts with arps, and getting the rods resized. I would still be left with heavier stock rods, and for not much more I can get some aftermarket h beams.

So when selecting the rotating assembly, I want the length from he center of the crank to the top of the piston to be 195mm?

[Piledriver]

Interesting. I've never heard of that before. Did a quick google search, and it seems like the biggest issue with doing that is oiling?

I'm guessing weisco can make that width to what ever specs I need.

I'd like to use my 66mm stroke crank, but I'd probably have $2-300 in replacing the bolts with arps, and getting the rods resized. I would still be left with heavier stock rods, and for not much more I can get some aftermarket h beams.

So when selecting the rotating assembly, I want the length from he center of the crank to the top of the piston to be 195mm?

202mm, probably closer to 202.5 for zero deck, give or take.

Mahle Bs have a pin height of 35mm.
T1 rods are iirc 137mm.
stroke/2+rod length+compressionheight=deck.

I have always wanted to build one that way but my existing list of projects keeps getting in the way...

Richard once pointed out that on 24m pins valve spring shims work for piston spacers to get your .005-.007" spacing.
Note the oiling hole/groove are not usually perfectly centered on the rod journal.

Wiseco can add forced pin oiling pretty cheap, the oil scraped off the cylinder gets routed to the pin.

Also ask Wiseco for pistons in 4032 alloy, as it will last ~as long as a stocker and is MUCH stronger.
their typical forged piston alloy(2813) is not even recommended for endurance racing, much less long term street use, too soft, ring grooves go away.

This will last MUCH longer, and run at a much tighter clearance.

[tonyorlo]

Dumb question, going by tunacans site the stock 1.8 would be
66/2 + 126 + 36 = 195

What is the deck height on a t4 stock? I know you can shim to gain a mm or so right? Honestly this seems like the most affordable solution. I could, and am probably wrong though lol.

Using the valve spring shims will make it easy to fit the rod into the piston. I've read that the clearence should be between .011 and .016. I'm sure the con rod or piston manufacture could give a recommended tolerance though.

Forced pin oiling, will the con rods require machine work for that?

Thanks for the replies pile!

[tonyorlo]

Dumb question, going by tunacans site the stock 1.8 would be
66/2 + 126 + 36 = 195

What is the deck height on a t4 stock? I know you can shim to gain a mm or so right? Honestly this seems like the most affordable solution. I could, and am probably wrong though lol.

Using the valve spring shims will make it easy to fit the rod into the piston. I've read that the clearence should be between .011 and .016. I'm sure the con rod or piston manufacture could give a recommended tolerance though.

Forced pin oiling, will the con rods require machine work for that?

Thanks for the replies pile!

Edit: To answer my own question. Holes are drilled into the oil ring grove to force oil to the wrist pin.

[Piledriver]

36mm is 2L pin height. 1.7/1.8 is ~42mm.
IIRC the 1.7 rods are 127mm, 2L are 131mm.(I have actually measured the latter myself to be sure)

I could be 1mm off on the 1.7s rods but in the end the 1.7 deck is ~.020" shorter than the 2L, so there's a half mm between the piston or rod unaccounted for, the case and the cylinder length is the same.
71/2+131+36=202.5, the 2L is closer to zero deck, so actual deck of an unmolested P&L setup w/no shims or gaskets is probably 202.75ish, you always have to measure when you actually build the motor. regardless.
1.7 piston sits ~.020ish more down the hole (from memory)

[tonyorlo]

Ah, this all makes more sense now.

So I can have my stock 1.8 crank, 5.5 rods with type 1 journals and have Weisco set the pin height at 29.8 mm. Maybe it should be at 30mm and I could shim the cyls to zero deck.

I'm bringing my crank to work tomorrow to check it out with the mic's. I was going to see if we could chuck it on the lathe and I'd polish it. Bad idea? I've never polished a crank before, but I've always been told to just barley hit it with some emery cloth on a lathe.

[Piledriver]

I would let a machine shop polish it, they have the gear to do it properly.
Crocus cloth, 4/0 or so perhaps. Direction matters.

I personally would not bother unless it has surface rust or an imperfection.
Likely does more harm than good.

[tonyorlo]

The journals look to be in good shape. I'll take your advice on that and not attempt to make it worse.

I contacted weisco about the pistons. They said the forced pin oiling is no problem, and the 4032 alloy. They said the rods will most likely need to be shimmed, which was what I assumed would need done. I just wanted to contact them and see if they had any concerns about piston guided rod. They do have Volvo pistons for that type of application. I asked if they had any shims.

I'll try to contact scat to get there opinion on using there rods in a piston guided rod engine. I know it shouldn't be a problem but it never hurts to ask.

[Piledriver]

Cool.
Note the 4032 alloy pistons require MUCH tighter clearance than the typical forged units, pretty close to stock pistons w/expansion controlling steel bits cast in.

[tonyorlo]

Since I will run 94s, what's the best way to do the cyls? Originals punched out, or aftermarket 94s?