Home made rotisserie

[Ol'fogasaurus]

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I don't know how much you looked at the rear connection to the rotisserie but this might be part of a fix. Right now, to raise the pan up some I have turned the mounting bracket upside down to lift the pan up to a better working location. I

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This shows the front hookup where it was when the rear position was like the previous picture. It shows that there is the potential to lower the front end more than a tad. It also allows for leveling the pan out also.

Something to think about as your use is going to be a lot different than mine is.

Also, another thing that I may have mentioned that I saw a version my rotisserie but with the center legs not facing under the pan but out to the rear to trip over . As far as to what I am doing I am now curious as to whether I could turn the rear mount around and then be able to rotate the pan around as it was the forward facing rear tube that the torsion bar's caps were hitting.


Assuming that you haven't already thought about it (I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't though) if you've shortened the rear pivot's leg enough then you might be able to rotate the pan a full 360° depending on how tall the sides are going to be. Do some measuring before you get too far along.

Just thinking out loud here.

Lee

[GS guy]

I like your set-up Lee! I'm keeping the "T"-leg (the one in the middle) close to original length on both stands. The main thrust of my modifications is increasing the distance between yoke and that leg. I can now see why they re-designed the stand to the newer version - easier to make parts and a lot fewer holes to drill (and keep lined up)! I finally finished all the rough fab today - all parts cut, beveled and mostly ready for welding. Always so much fun removing mill-scale.... It's a lot of parts!
Fitting the taller 4" casters provides a ton of room under the stand, something I hadn't really considered when I first planned out the modifications. Easily enough room to allow fitting the T-leg underneath the rear cross leg. Imagine having another 4" of vertical room on your stand. I mocked it all up again and the yoke height is now about 4-6" below my elbow (at my waist). I think it's going to work great.

Just a little more finishing work on a couple of pieces and then waiting for another decent day to drag out the welding gear, maybe next week?
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Yeah, staying inside right now as it isn't as cold out as it was but at noon the snow started falling again. I think the normally blocked streets (going form one town to another) in and out will be open for use and add to that the very steep streets that are normally used will be blocked. Not sure what the snow fall will be but its supposed to be somewhere between zilch and a foot (or more ) plus the possibility of winds up to 40 mph. Not a blizzard but not much fun either. We don't get this kind of stuff often so we really aren't use to it in the "lowlands"; then, considering the population growth here in the last few years, many of the newbies are ready for it either.

The additional heights you made by changing to casters vs. the wheels like I have will be good change but it is the ability of being able to roll the rotisserie sideways vs. lifting and sliding each end is going to be a blessing. Good decision!

"... and the yoke height is now about 4-6" below my elbow (at my waist)."

This statement got my attention so I went out and measured to see where the top of my 3" body lift sits. With it sitting at the top of the what I can get out of changing the mounts to raise things up the dimension is +/- 34". When I was making that welding table I did some researching on work table heights and opinion is that table tops can range from 28"/29" to 38" or a measurement range from the elbow. Means nothing really but it is interesting at the same time.

Lee

[GS guy]

I was pondering your earlier comments on rotating your chassis and issues with the mounting points not being parallel/perfectly aligned to each other - the trans forks maybe having a slight pre-load built in and frame head with it's caster angle. Seems like what's really needed to connect to the stands are basic universal joints at each end - like from an old driveshaft. Then it wouldn't matter how well aligned both end mounts are to each other. Spin at will! Unfortunately, I don't happen to have one laying around to cannibalize. Food for thought though....
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

It looks like I have reached the limit of posting pictures here too.

The roughly 6° angle on the frame head is a problem but I don't think it is all of the problem, just at the one end. I was trying to post a pix of the rear trans mounts (aka Pickle Forks) focusing in where there is a bend towards the end where the CV joint is. The trans bolts to the end of the pickle forks and to the torsion tube assy where the shift rod then connects in place. The engine is bolted to the trans bellhousing with no other means of support other than the tubular, seamed mounts so unless you add a Kaffer/truss/traction bar (or other names for the same thing). I have asked this question before: does the trans mount flex and is/or is there some accommodation angle built into it to support deflection. If so that also may affect the rotisserie. Also, is the forks for the swing axle and the IRS axle the same except for the pinched area (I think not but I don't know for sure).

Weld the seams for the trans mounts and add a second outside support for the torsion tube as the hooked support has been known to break. Jeff Hibbard talks about it in his book on page 78 (with pictures) where he also talks about gusseting the shock towers.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=113703&start=720 See the top of the page for a pix of the support.

I couldn't find where I posted the other picture as it is pretty old.

Lee

[GS guy]

Dang Lee, after googling engine stand rotisserie and seeing what has worked for others - I think I'm waaay over-thinking the modifications I'm doing!
Oh well, it's a done deal now since I've already got everything cut, drilled and ready for welding. Probably could have come up with something much simpler had I spend more time "down-scaling" my ideas. As you've mentioned previously, the slop in the yoke/stand fit provides some allowances for mis-alignment. Just loosening the bolts that attach chassis to yoke adapters could give some additional flexibility, although that might require tying the stands together for stability? I'm leaning towards using strut channel in the chassis-yoke adapter. All the available bolt-hole positions is bound to be helpful for making adjustments.

That stinks about a picture posting limit? I didn't know there was one here - maybe you can get an "exception" with an admin?

Here's another progress pic - close up of the vertical post base to cross and T-legs. Did I mention I probably over-thought this?

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(Edit - Looks like the pic thing is fixed)
Edit 2 - looking at that pic I see I missed grinding/stripping some pieces!
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I was thinking about the board limit myself. Just went out to get the paper and we now have 6" of new snow overnight.

I don't think you can over think things most of the time as your planned use it not the same as mine. One thing that dawned on me this am was that you might need to have brakes on at least one wheel at each end outboard end. If you get rough doing something I don't think you want to be chasing your rotisserie around your garage . With the wheel setup I have it is less possible but your setup makes it easier to "adjust" the location.

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This is the pix I was trying to post yesterday.

Lee

[GS guy]

I'll be running 2 fixed caster wheels on one end Lee, with rotating/locking casters on the other end. It'll give me some steering ability although with the extremely looong wheelbase I won't want to do any 90s or 180s! I'd built a chassis build table a while back with rotating casters all around - it was a pain to roll as one end didn't want to follow the other. Didn't want that with the rotisserie.

Just for fun I tried out the vinegar mill scale removal trick last night. It worked a treat! Those flat plates just under the vertical tube in my pic above had some super tough scale on them - a 46 grit flap wheel wouldn't even touch it! Researched other removal options and saw a youtube with a guy using household vinegar - figured what the heck. Picked up some 6% "cleaning grade" vinegar yesterday, threw a bit of it and the parts in a bucked and soaked overnight. Scrubbed off the scale with a toothbrush (basically wiped off) this morning, then finished up with some alkaline detergent to neutralize and finish clean - parts now look great and ready for welding! I'm definitely keeping that trick in my back pocket for future use.

Expecting snow tonight and tomorrow. Slight warming trend for later in the week so I might get an opportunity to make some sparks. Wonder if my wife would like to see some nice welded parts instead of flowers for Valentines day? Eh, no.
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I'll have to try to remember the vinegar trick.

More snow this afternoon: a trace to a couple of inches. Tomorrow will be a big dump again; quite a few inches. Very unusual for us to get a total of maybe 4 o5 5 inches of snow a year. this am it was 18°. The 6" measurement was wrong, because of the wind the front of the house was more than 6" and the one side and the back of the house was pushing a foot.

I have a couple of welds to finish then I have to turn the buggy's pan around so I can get to the other side. My part of the garage while, two spaces wide, is still pretty tight for swapping ends.

Sounds like you are having fun with this which is the right way to be. If it is/becomes "a drudge" then the work becomes proportionally harder on someone.

Lee

[GS guy]

Now we're getting somewhere. Decent weather yesterday so spent some quality time with the welder. Got 95% done, just waiting on a couple of pieces from A&A Manufacturing (90* braces and tube end caps) to finish up. I'll be adding the braces on either side of the vertical tube at the bottom, then capping the cross leg to keep the varmints out. Once that's done I can sand and paint and make it all purdy. I caught one screw-up on the assembled stand - the newer HF version shown below. When I welded the base to the vertical tube I carefully lined it up with the upper 'red' portion of the tube, clamping flat to the weld table and squaring up the base to that tube. In hindsight, I recall that tube not being all that rectangular in cross section when I was figuring out how to line up and add the extension. I should have checked this more carefully as when assembled the yoke head isn't parallel to the T-leg. Should have cross-checked this during pre-weld setup, since what matters is the yoke alignment to the base - not what's in between! Oh well, I'll probably just shim one side of the tube base to the cross leg to straighten it out. Alternately, I guess I could cut a little wedge out of the T-leg and re-weld? Have to think about this. I'll need this to be pretty well aligned when I connect the bases together by sliding the strut channel inside the T-legs and bolting the stands rigidly to each other.

Here's one stand un-assembled.

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And the newer stand loosely assembled.

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Close-up of the base design where the legs and vertical tube come together. I'll add an additional bolt to the empty hole for final assembly.

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Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Oooooo… Ahhhhhh… purdy!

The tubing being out of shape doesn't surprise me a bit. When doing the body lift and a couple of other things using medium to thick wall rectangular tube I noticed that the seamed side, when it was on the long side, wasn't always flat. Not sure if that is a material problem, welding problem or just what. Material problems lately have seemed to get worse. When I did my first body lift I didn't have too much problem other than I was learning how to weld and make the "kerf" cuts for the bends but when doing the second body lift I had definite problems with the material.

Where they made the seams, when they were on the long side, could be in the middle or on one third (approx.) or the other (depending on where the ends of the tube were; e.g., flipped I made sure that the seams stayed either up or down so the loading would be the same... just as a precaution). Welding at the seam on the second lift was hard as I was getting a lot of blow through no matter how I set the welders controls. One of the reasons I backed up the "kerfing" with doublers.

On the little welding table I built lately drilling the 1/2" clamping holes at times were weird experiences as I was hitting both hard and soft spots in the material as I went along the paths I had marked and center punched. There was one section where each of the drills squalled like a stuck pig, especially the 1/4" new drill bit because the smaller drill bit would either break or just wouldn't/couldn't get started.

You are doing what looks to be a great job, keep it up!

Lee

[GS guy]

Thanks Lee. I did some more checking this morning and found that all mis-alignment is at the yoke head. The 1.5x3 "metric" tube isn't very square on one 1.5" side. The opposite 1.5" side does appear fairly square and is aligned well with the yoke. Guess which side I aligned to for welding....
All the stuff at the bottom/legs is really nice and square, so the problem is the yoke head. After pondering this a bit I think I'm going to cut through the 1.5 x 3 tube a few inches below the yoke - on 3 sides (leaving one 1.5" section un-cut) like your kerf cuts. Then work in a little twist (1-2 degrees) at the cut to align the yoke with base legs - the un-cut portion will help hold the yoke position so I can tack it up in the "corrected" position, then re-check alignment and finally weld it back up. If I cut it all the way off it really opens up a pandora's box with figuring out how to hold the parts correctly re-aligned with the base - I guess this is where a nice Large level welding table would come in handy! With my set-up it would be too easy to wind up with it mis-aligned again after all the work.
My question is about doing a "kerf" type of cut and re-welding. My small band saw will make about a 0.032" width cut. Not easy (impossible?) to put nice bevels either side of the cut - so do you just up the amps with the welder to ensure good penetration? I guess you really concentrate on keeping the welding wire centered in the cut during welding? Seems like the weld bead is primarily on top of the metal? Otherwise, this looks like my best approach to fixing the problem.
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"... My question is about doing a "kerf" type of cut and re-welding. My small band saw will make about a 0.032" width cut. Not easy (impossible?) to put nice bevels either side of the cut - so do you just up the amps with the welder to ensure good penetration? I guess you really concentrate on keeping the welding wire centered in the cut during welding? Seems like the weld bead is primarily on top of the metal? Otherwise, this looks like my best approach to fixing the problem."

First of all I didn't learn how to weld until after I retired so there is a lot I missed by waiting so long . A couple of things to consider: First of all I used a square to ensure I don't have the problem you have run into. I do it out of habit now and I don't do it just once either. I have one tube sitting around that I am sure I have check then ends on more than a dozen times .

I cut the tube using a cutting disc and, in-case you missed it, I cut through the radius on the untouched side both top and bottom. I would also drill the end of the cut to prevent the cut to keep it from turning into a crack just like you would do to a crack before welding it shut. Also there should be a gap and it should be "Vee'd" for the heat and fill to get into to the material join the two sides for full penetration (https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/wel ... tt-welding and https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/foru ... w-much-gap This is the search line I used when I double checked the question: "what is the gap required when welding metal" ) Remember that heat changes things then cools off and things shrink.

Opinion: since your problem is at the bottom I am not sure, due to potential off-set loading up high with the pan/frame and potential stiffening parts added that can change the height of the loading, that I would do the kerf up there but you would probably be OK doing it there. Remember, I am use to loading of 12 G's with some times with a "crib" turning it to more like 16 G's (in this case a crib is more like "hedging your bets". I am not an engineer so don't have the math to back it up... a lot of "lectures" on the subject but no math (the last real math schooling I had was over 55 years ago). Personally I think I could cut the weld on the bottom on the same 3 sides you are talking about then wedge the tube until it is upright using some kind of wedge (a screw diver or two might work to get the set up correct then add some filler if needed but again, I am not an expert of welding) then do a nice full weld there.

As far as welding goes my MIG welder has heat ranges marked for the material thickness, it is the wire speed you have to figure out. Recommendations for the weld are back and forth across the join or better yet (or so I have been told) is to use circular movement. The newer ones are even easier as the machine does it for you. Again, I don't weld enough to get real good at it but it's good enough so far that I haven't had too many failures (none yet anyway).

Lee

[GS guy]

Another small update. Thanks again for your insightful thoughts and links Lee, super appreciated!
I assembled the 2nd stand and pleasantly surprised everything lined up great on #2. I then set 'em up toe to toe and connected/clamped together with a section of heavy angle steel linking the two T-legs. This gets the T-legs in parallel and provides the final test how well the yoke heads align with each other. Bore sighting gives good clues - the orange stand sights straight to the center of the red stand yoke, while from the red stand yoke the bore appears to be slightly up and to the right of the orange yoke center, confirming the earlier observations. A length of angle steel placed atop both yokes (V against the yoke tubes) shows how much the red yoke needs to be moved, orange yoke right on the $$$! I'll use this set-up during the alignment correction process.
From your post above, it dawned on me about using a cut-off tool (my angle grinder) as a means to V the cut line. I'll do as suggested and drill the ends of the cut, then make the opening with a cut-off wheel to give a slightly wider gap than the band saw. I've got a grinding wheel with a square profile OD I'll use to carefully 45 the cut opening - should give a nice V-groove for welding. Then align the yoke head, see if I can clamp it in position and carefully spot weld the corners and re-check alignment. I'll probably do a few short welds and keep checking alignment as I don't know how much the welds will "pull" the head down as they cool and shrink? Likely use a wedge/screwdriver in there too to try and maintain the shape. Think it's worthwhile to slightly bias the alignment a little to compensate for shrinkage? I typically spot in all the corners first, then weld opposing sides when I stick metal parts together - a tip from my professional welding friend. I'm strictly a "hobby" welder.
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"... Think it's worthwhile to slightly bias the alignment a little to compensate for shrinkage?"

A good question that I don't know the answer to; a lot of it has to do with how much heat is added. Thought: maybe do a full weld on each of the short ends, let cool then check things out before tackling the long side. Just a guess on my part.

Lee