Awd 6 speed subaru gears install(hot garbage)

[vw1970]

So i wanted to share some info fro anyone brave enough to venture down the path of reversing a ty751 cable shift 6 speed for a AWD project.
I received my parts from Subarugears a while back and am just now getting a chance to install them into my transmission. If you are getting into doing the actual work of opening up your transmission I'll assume youve watched all the videos that Subaru gears has to offer on the subject. This post is intended to fill in some of the missing details.

So I opened up the other side of the front differential housing to accept the ring gear as detail in the videos on their website/youtube and nothing unusual to report on the 6speed vs 5speed process. Then I moved onto the pinion change over which instantly i notice would be a bit different than the documented 5speed install. Mainly beeing that since it has an extra gear, It's decently longer than the 5 speed. Then I could see that the lock nut is a bit different than the 5 speed and not a easy to remove at 100ft/lbs and not a lot to hold onto to remove it without having the factory holding tools to stick it in your vice. But the first real issure i ran into after reassembling the pinion inside the driven gear tube. There is a slight length discrepency between the oem pinion and the new Subarugears one. Hard to tell with the blind eye but i could see around a .020" gain in length on the new part. This turned into a problem when trying to tighten the lock nut on the pinion to snug up all the thrust bearings and get everything tight with not play which would cause your end play measurements to be all over the place.

Here is a pic of the factory fitment excluding the two washers and nut on the very end of the stack seen in the following picture from the FSM.

IMG_20191007_140535 by Travis L, on Flickr

wrx trans by Travis L, on Flickr

After reading through the FSM, it stated that the splined collar should "visually be flush" to the top of the splines. and as you can see, it is indeed pretty close to flush. Though on the new part in the following picture, the splines are proud about .015" as previously seen on a shitty tape measure.

IMG_20191007_142315 by Travis L, on Flickr

[vw1970]

Now that I've identified that discrepancy I contacted Subarugear about the problem and it seemed they had never encountered this. So I read through the FSM some more and i found that there is a factory procedure for addressing this exact problem.

It basically says that there are two "adjusting washers" that are intended to get the visually flush stack that is required to get the appropriate lash in the pinion gear stack and "starting torque". Starting torque is basically how much force it takes to get the pinion to spin on the bearings which is adjusted by different adjusting washer combinations.
here is a picture of the washer that sits directly onto of the splines and blow the lock washer and following lock nut. You'll notice a slight (.005") relief meant to let you have a bit of wiggle room with your adjusting washer stack as the relief diameter is big enough to miss the splines but the minor diameter is that of the upper pinion shaft.

IMG_20191009_112558 by Travis L, on Flickr

here are the FSM part numbers for the adjusting washer. I'll be maxed out on both thicknesses so hopefully this will get me where I need to be

wrx trans2 by Travis L, on Flickr

wrx trans3 by Travis L, on Flickr

I haven't picked up the washers on order, but i'll report on the price and fitment once I can get them in my mits

[Bruce2]

I contacted Subarugear about the problem and it seemed they had never encountered this.

This is exactly what they say about all of the problems everyone finds.

[volksbugly]

How is the 6 speed swap coming along? I'm currently looking at doing either the 5 or 6 speed. At the moment I've been looking around for transmissions and not sure what extra work would happen due to going 6 speed. I like the non cable type transmissions where I can just couple to the existing shift rod, but not sure if the 6 speed will allow that.

[bajabugnut]

I have been wanting to do this for a couple years now. Would you have an update.

[Master slacker]

I'd like to see an update on subabrakes FRONT brake possibilities

[vw1970]

I contacted Subarugear about the problem and it seemed they had never encountered this.

This is exactly what they say about all of the problems everyone finds.

that's pretty much what I've come to find as well. I haven't updated this thread because I've been really turned off by the whole experience with Subaru gears and their products.

First I purchased their AWD synco nose cone kit ($1000) and their AWD ty75 6 speed ring and pinion ($1900) totaling $2900 which i would classify as the single most expensive part of this entire project thus far and maybe in the future as well.
I spent countless hours and nights trying to get the lash setup correctly and after reaching out to Tod at SG and getting an extremely lack luster response, I broke down and took it to a local transmission shop that specializes in performance and racing applications. I talked to him at length about the issues I was having and he seemed confident he could get in setup no problem.
To my disappointment, I finally got a call back saying that he couldn't get it setup within speced back lash and maintain a desirable pattern. So we agreed for him to set it up with a pattern over lash mentality.
When I picked up the transmission he voiced his concern for the dimensional variation and sub par build quality from the low Mileage OEM ring and pinion I had supplied with the transmission. Long story short, I reached out to Tod voicing my worries about all of my findings and trials with his parts and asked him what his return policy was.
"We don't offer returns for change of mind" Is the last correspondence I had with him.

So basically I'm now stuck with gears that look like prototypes and don't fit for poop that i cant return.. and have no other option but to use. But I haven't let that hold up my project since I was waaaaay to far along by the time this all came to a head.

I would strongly advise avoiding giving Tod any money or considering using any of his parts in any of your projects now or in the future

[vw1970]

Here are some project pics since having "a change of mind" LOL

IMG_20191227_191818 by Travis L, on Flickr

IMG_20200326_134727 by Travis L, on Flickr

IMG_20200328_180703 by Travis L, on Flickr

IMG_20200417_183053 by Travis L, on Flickr

IMG_20200417_183040 by Travis L, on Flickr

[Bruce2]

I spent countless hours and nights trying to get the lash setup correctly and after reaching out to Tod at SG and getting an extremely lack luster response,

I also had considerable difficulty on my first 5 speed conversion when following Todd's direction. I was using the large plexiglas pinion depth tool to try to determine the pinion shim, and the small plastic tab bolted onto the threaded end of the pinion shaft to measure the backlash.
The pinion depth tool was the first thing I abandoned. Todd even admitted he was considering eliminating it from the kit, although he still has it on his site. My approach was going to be to pick a pinion depth, then set the backlash and look at the pattern. Repeat for other pinion depth shims until a good pattern was found.
My problem then became measuring the backlash with the plastic tab at the threaded end. This is how I measure backlash on a Type 1 trans, so I expected no trouble. I measured the radial distance from the center of the pinion shaft to the expected contact location on the pinion teeth. Then I indicated off that same distance from the center of the shaft at the threaded end. No joy. When I contacted Todd about this, he was dismayed that I wasn't indicating in the spot on the tool that is marked. My reply was that it wasn't the right point. He said I was wrong and offered no explanation why he was right, only that there was lots of arguing at his end during development and that he was right. This doesn't sit well with me. When you propose a solution that is illogical, I need a believable explanation before I will blindly follow it.
I have given up on that method of measuring backlash too.
In the factory manual, there is a procedure that seems pretty simple, although it provides you with no measurement. It tells you to screw in both bearing supports until there is no backlash, and no diff bearing play. I do this with the starter side case half up, and with about a 5 lb weight pushing the diff down. First, screw in the bottom support to lift the ring gear into the pinion until there is no perceptible play. Then screw the top one in until you get some resistance. From that point, unscrew the bearing support on the ring gear side (bottom) by 3 teeth. Screw in the opposite bearing support (top) by 3 teeth as well. This sets the backlash. Finally, screw in the starter side bearing support (top) by one additional tooth to provide diff bearing preload. Now roll the diff over to mark your pattern.
Since using this approach, setting them up has become much easier. I find that this R&P does not react the same as any VW ones I've worked on. Since I've let go of my VW experience, the Subaru setup has become pretty quick. The resulting pattern is never like any VW pattern I've seen either. Nor any pattern in photos in books on R&P setup. I just get the pattern centered up and down, heel to toe.
I'm working on my 5th conversion right now.

[vw1970]

I spent countless hours and nights trying to get the lash setup correctly and after reaching out to Tod at SG and getting an extremely lack luster response,

I also had considerable difficulty on my first 5 speed conversion when following Todd's direction. I was using the large plexiglas pinion depth tool to try to determine the pinion shim, and the small plastic tab bolted onto the threaded end of the pinion shaft to measure the backlash.
The pinion depth tool was the first thing I abandoned. Todd even admitted he was considering eliminating it from the kit, although he still has it on his site. My approach was going to be to pick a pinion depth, then set the backlash and look at the pattern. Repeat for other pinion depth shims until a good pattern was found.
My problem then became measuring the backlash with the plastic tab at the threaded end. This is how I measure backlash on a Type 1 trans, so I expected no trouble. I measured the radial distance from the center of the pinion shaft to the expected contact location on the pinion teeth. Then I indicated off that same distance from the center of the shaft at the threaded end. No joy. When I contacted Todd about this, he was dismayed that I wasn't indicating in the spot on the tool that is marked. My reply was that it wasn't the right point. He said I was wrong and offered no explanation why he was right, only that there was lots of arguing at his end during development and that he was right. This doesn't sit well with me. When you propose a solution that is illogical, I need a believable explanation before I will blindly follow it.
I have given up on that method of measuring backlash too.
In the factory manual, there is a procedure that seems pretty simple, although it provides you with no measurement. It tells you to screw in both bearing supports until there is no backlash, and no diff bearing play. I do this with the starter side case half up, and with about a 5 lb weight pushing the diff down. First, screw in the bottom support to lift the ring gear into the pinion until there is no perceptible play. Then screw the top one in until you get some resistance. From that point, unscrew the bearing support on the ring gear side (bottom) by 3 teeth. Screw in the opposite bearing support (top) by 3 teeth as well. This sets the backlash. Finally, screw in the starter side bearing support (top) by one additional tooth to provide diff bearing preload. Now roll the diff over to mark your pattern.
Since using this approach, setting them up has become much easier. I find that this R&P does not react the same as any VW ones I've worked on. Since I've let go of my VW experience, the Subaru setup has become pretty quick. The resulting pattern is never like any VW pattern I've seen either. Nor any pattern in photos in books on R&P setup. I just get the pattern centered up and down, heel to toe.
I'm working on my 5th conversion right now.

That is a very similar conclusion I have come to through lots of trial and error. The pinion gauge tool wasn't even close to being right so I too quickly abandoned it and let the pattern speak for itself. What it told me is the the pinion couldn't move toward the differential enough with zero shims without modifying something. This is when i got the giant calipers out and started reverse engineering the SG pinion and found a handful of dimensional discrepancy. this is precisely what I communicated to Tod and was met with denial and deflection. My overall conclusion is that he has a great product with little to no post production R&D or quality control. Basically it seems he is relying on customers to beta test his products unwillingly and report their tribulations then revising parts accordingly essentially on their dime/time. Un fortunately I opted to explore a platform that is less popular and hasn't been beta tested by unsuspecting folk as much as the 2wd 5speed parts have hence why my parts look very much like prototypes and not like a large batch revised product.
At this point all i can do is run these very expensive very low quality parts as setup by a very very experienced transmission shop and move forward in producing my own custom R&P.

Do you have a link to your build thread Bruce2?

[maurice]

Its sad to hear other people have had problems with Subarugears as well. That guy is a total dick, and I’ve talked a couple people out of going with his products.

[Bruce2]

That is a very similar conclusion I have come to through lots of trial and error. The pinion gauge tool wasn't even close to being right so I too quickly abandoned it and let the pattern speak for itself. What it told me is the the pinion couldn't move toward the differential enough with zero shims without modifying something. This is when i got the giant calipers out and started reverse engineering the SG pinion and found a handful of dimensional discrepancy. this is precisely what I communicated to Tod and was met with denial and deflection. My overall conclusion is that he has a great product with little to no post production R&D or quality control. Basically it seems he is relying on customers to beta test his products unwillingly and report their tribulations then revising parts accordingly essentially on their dime/time. Un fortunately I opted to explore a platform that is less popular and hasn't been beta tested by unsuspecting folk as much as the 2wd 5speed parts have hence why my parts look very much like prototypes and not like a large batch revised product.
At this point all i can do is run these very expensive very low quality parts as setup by a very very experienced transmission shop and move forward in producing my own custom R&P.

Do you have a link to your build thread Bruce2?

I haven't documented the builds anywhere yet. I was thinking that someone needs to make a series of short videos of all the steps involved in the conversion. I'm not really interested in doing that right now.

The last one I did had a fairly thick shim pack behind the pinion bearing when I first opened it up. There were 3 of them. I have it written down in the shop, I'll get that number later. The best pattern came when I removed 2 of the 3 shims, so this is similar to what you saw, the SG pinion requires less shim than the stock Subaru pinion.

I do searches on Youtube to see if there's anything good there. So far, the builds there are quite mediocre. I found this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbFvrQyXIc
He did a 5 speed for his Vanagon. In one of his videos he stated that he had to completely remove all of the pinion shims. So there's a third data point verifying your findings.

When doing the 5 speed conversion, you probably know you have to cut apart part of the casting that originally houses the center diff. Then there are 3 holes that need to be sealed up. He sells a plug for the large one, then tells you to get the other two TIG welded up. Recently, he has started selling an all new casting so you don't need to modify the stock part. We bought a couple when they first came out.
The first problem was that there was insufficient room inside up by the top of the selector where it fits in the spring loaded device that returns the shifter to the 3-4 position. The casting was preventing full engagement of 2, 4, and R. A comparison with the stock part showed plenty of clearance. When I informed Todd, he denied it was happening. I even sent him photos proving it. His reply was that he tests everything and would never send anything out that didn't work.
I had two of them and fixed them both. Fast forward to a couple of months ago, my customer ordered the castings by mistake again. By some miracle, the interference that didn't exist was somehow fixed!
Another problem with them was what I call sloppy work by a bad designer. The problem was with the holes for the bolts holding it to the two case halves. The walls beside the holes were so close to the holes, you couldn't use the stock hex bolts. There simply wasn't enough room for the hex head of the bolt. And not enough for a socket. I had to source socket head cap screws.

[Bruce2]

That is a very similar conclusion I have come to through lots of trial and error. The pinion gauge tool wasn't even close to being right so I too quickly abandoned it and let the pattern speak for itself. What it told me is the the pinion couldn't move toward the differential enough with zero shims without modifying something. This is when i got the giant calipers out and started reverse engineering the SG pinion and found a handful of dimensional discrepancy. this is precisely what I communicated to Tod and was met with denial and deflection.

Do you have a link to your build thread Bruce2?

I haven't documented the builds anywhere yet. I was thinking that someone needs to make a series of short videos of all the steps involved in the conversion. I'm not really interested in doing that right now.

The last one I did had a fairly thick shim pack behind the pinion bearing when I first opened it up. There were 3 of them. I have it written down in the shop, I'll get that number later. The best pattern came when I removed 2 of the 3 shims, so this is similar to what you saw, the SG pinion requires less shim than the stock Subaru pinion.

I do searches on Youtube to see if there's anything good there. So far, the builds there are quite mediocre. I found this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbFvrQyXIc
He did a 5 speed for his Vanagon. In one of his videos he stated that he had to completely remove all of the pinion shims. So there's a third data point verifying your findings.

Finished another Subaru conversion on the weekend. Because of what you said, and my previous one, on my first contact pattern reading, I went with a lot less shim than stock. Subaru had .7 on their R&P, so I used .25mm. The pattern was great. This makes two in a row with a .25mm shim. Among all of us, this is four conversions with shims being a lot less than what Subaru used.

Here's another video of the Vanagon guy's conversion with more photos of the parts:
https://youtu.be/5kojeTlZOmM

[Master slacker]

In general (just trying to get a "right now" feel for things), the 6 speed appears to be problematic, but does the original 5 speed conversion "work"? Have all the wrinkles been smoothed out?

[Bruce2]

Some of the early problems I've heard of:

Pinion shaft breaking near the pinion head.
The first design of the reverse R&P had the shaft exactly the same dimensions as the Subaru pinion shaft. Then when you slid it in the output tube, you placed the original needle bearing in there to act as a spacer since the tube and pinion shaft are now locked. The story I heard was that this small shaft near the pinion broke. To strengthen it, the diameter was increased where the needle bearing once was to be the same dia as the OD of the needle bearing. This cured the problem. If you listen to Todd's videos, now he always refers to his pinion shaft as a "High Powered Pinion Shaft".

Oil level.
Today, the recommended oil fill quantity from SG is more than what Subaru recommends. Since the converted gearbox has less internal room than the AWD gearbox, it makes no sense to put so much oil in it. I heard that R&Ps were burning up, so the oil level was increased to prevent this. If you look at the sight glass for the oil level, it's quite a bit higher than the level on the dip stick. It may be that the angle of the gearbox in a Subaru is different than how we install them in a VW, and that the oil at the ring gear would be less in a VW, so increasing the oil will help.

In all fairness to Todd, I don't see how anyone could have anticipated either of these problems.