Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Discuss VW transaxles and transmissions. Gearheads wanted!
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Clatter
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Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Clatter » Sat May 14, 2022 12:35 am

When ripping apart a later trans with the big nut pinion,
If the pinion nut is found loose, then the case is junk.
Ever see exceptions to this rule?

Every R/P with a loose nut i ever found has been junk so far too.

Sucks.
Lot of work to source and tear down cores!. :x
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jsturtlebuggy
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by jsturtlebuggy » Mon May 16, 2022 2:01 pm

Are you talking about the 80mm nut or the actual pinion bearing being loose in the case?
Don Karraker, D.K. Machining in Norwalk, CA (562) 864-9618 installs steel sleeves for the pinion bearing in transaxle cases. The ones I have seen him done are Type 2 IRS, he may do type 1 too.
Joseph

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Clatter
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Clatter » Tue May 17, 2022 1:35 am

I’m asking about both, really…
If the nut is loose, does it automatically mean the case bore is too?
Once the nut is loose it allows the pinion bearing to move in the bore, so there’s going to be some wear,
But does it guarantee a case is bad?
There have been a couple cores i ripped down that the nut was loose and the pinion bearing was super loose in the case and the R/P was totally wasted.
The bearing dropped right into the bore with everything cold.
No brainer there - just toss the case.

This last one, however, the nut was loose, the trans case popped open pretty easily - bearing wasn’t super tight to the case - and the R/P is just pitted enough that I wouldn’t use it unless i had to..
Bearing won’t go into the case bore cold, and I guess I’ll have to apply some heat and see how much it takes before the bearing drops in.
Maybe line three cases up and compare how much heat/time they all take before the bearing slides in.
Guess that would tell a story about how good they were eh?

Funny, boxed up an 091 case and put in the mail to Don just this morning (!)
At a couple hunnert bux plus shipping it’s not worth it to sleeve a Beetle trans, hopefully never will be, either! :-)

Thanks for sharing the wisdom.
Lots of little details to these boxes for sure.
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Bruce2
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Bruce2 » Sun May 22, 2022 1:42 am

Clatter wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:35 am
If the pinion nut is found loose, then the case is junk.
Ever see exceptions to this rule?
Every time.
Most of my cores are low mileage, never been opened before. Almost every one has a loose pinion nut. Almost every case is tight to the bearing, so it all gets rebuilt. It's rare for me to find a junk R&P. Maybe 1 in 20 or 25.

As long as the bore for the pinion bearing is tight, reuse the case.

How does the nut get loose?
It is peened into the notch of the bearing, so it didn't unscrew itself. Besides, the damage to the threads of the nut is always in the notch of the bearing.
I think Paul suggested that the nut skips a tooth. I don't buy that. The nut would have to expand by 1.5mm to do that.

I think it happens at the factory. Think about how they slam things together with incredible speed on the assembly line. My bet is that they have a super high powered inductive tool that they stick inside the bore to heat it up just before putting the gearstacks with gear carrier into the main case. Such an inductive tool could heat the case in 10 seconds or less. Then they quickly slide the gears in, then install the nut and tighten it right away. Even if they torque it up to 160ft-lbs, that clamping force is gone by the time the case cools and the length of the pinion bore contracts.
In other words, I think the factory ships them loose from new.

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Clatter
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Clatter » Tue May 24, 2022 9:35 am

Bruce2 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:42 am
As long as the bore for the pinion bearing is tight, reuse the case.
How tight is tight?

I did a little side-by side experiment with my 'heat lamps' to compare.

These 'painters lights' have two of the highest-capacity bulbs they sell.
It's pretty amazing how much heat they put out,
But even more so how much the case bore opens up using them! :shock:

Three cases got tested this way; all three the pinion bearing wouldn't drop in cold.

Case1 - zig-zag - this one came apart relatively easily, pinion nut wanted to fight a bit coming off.
After not a lot of heat, case just warm, pinion dropped right in.
After cooling, pinion came free using short prybar and medium-light effort.

Case2 - early SSC - came apart easily, pinion was finger-tight. R/P pitted.
Same deal as other case, light heat and bearing dropped in. Easily levered out after cool.

Case3 - late Ghia - painted - I didn't take this one apart; got it disassembled.
Took a lot of heat to get the bearing to drop in, case had to be hot and had to push a bit.
After cooling, i couldn't lever it out using my wood block/prybar method here.
Only after some re-heating could i lever it back out!
To pull this one cold would need a screw/press thing like in TIm's book or the lever tool like in the Bentley.

Image

So as long as there's some interference it's OK to use a case, correct?
Only when the pinion bearing drops into, or can be hand pushed into, a cold case is it junk..?
Or do you want them tight tight like my painted one here?

Here in California, the cars don't rust as much and they get driven hard on the freeway.
Lots of fast freeway and stoplight derby.
Probably one of the worst places to hunt trans cores.
Other areas the cars rust and/or don't get driven so hard for so many years.
Not to mention our 'idiot factor'.. :lol:

Always appreciate real input from experienced builders here.
Much appreciated.
Let me know your thoughts on this one.
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Bruce2
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Bruce2 » Fri May 27, 2022 12:44 am

.......So as long as there's some interference it's OK to use a case, correct?

Yep, give it another life.

......Only when the pinion bearing drops into, or can be hand pushed into, a cold case is it junk..?

Yep.

......Or do you want them tight tight like my painted one here?

that, of course is what you would like. I suspect your painted case is low mileage. Was there evidence of it being previously rebuilt?

.......Here in California, the cars don't rust as much and they get driven hard on the freeway.

Along with being driven hard, they are driven hard when it's hot!

I recall 15 years ago, one SoCal trans rebuilder said every core has been rebuilt 2 or 3 times before already. He said we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I wonder what he says now?

The current trans I'm working on is an early SSC. This core came from a car that lived its life in Seattle. It's known that cars in Seattle are much higher mileage than cars where I live. Even though the weather is the same here (Vancouver), only 120 miles north, our cars rotted away much faster since we use so much salt on our roads in the winter. The state of WA doesn't use any salt. The various counties around Seattle use far less salt than the cities around here.
I can tell that this Seattle core is a much higher milage trans because the pinion bore in the case is a lot looser than what I normally see.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri May 27, 2022 10:50 am

The idea of using heat lamps to expand things is usually a good idea, more control on the amount of heat and eliminates some of the potential hot spots and damage hat a flame can give or even heaters or even contact heaters can supply. While the heating this way is slower by far but any local overheating problems is lowered way down. You still have to control things to make sure that the heat is even all the way around what you are doing.

It also allows one to see things better especially when it is dark out. :wink:

Lee

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Clatter
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Clatter » Fri May 27, 2022 1:35 pm

I’m really stoked to have found this trick with the lights.
It might not work with a steel-sleeved 091 but it’s really precise for doing these beetle transaxles.
I can put it under the lights and turn it every few minutes and the case will get warm, and then hot - right up to where it’s almost hard to hang on to.

I’ve had over a half-dozen transaxles apart now and they do vary a lot.
Luckily most have been really nice and apparently never apart.
Some you can tell for sure they’ve been rebuilt by the rattle-can black and shiny nylocks. :roll:
Some don’t show any obvious signs, but they might have been rebuilt with factory parts BITD so how to tell?
Others will have the Deihl(sp?) syncros that might give it away.

A couple have been wasted. Pinion loose in bore, R/P pitted, pinion bearing cracked.
Sucks because a few of these i spent all day at the Pick n Pull plus $150 or so.

The rattle-can rebuilds have had this “ALL crappy parts” thing going on.
Seems they took apart cores, sorted the parts for grade, then assembled a trans out of all the marginal stuff.

This black one is an AN i got on CL for $100. It was already apart and i cannot figure out why just yet.
Every everything has been great so far!
So far I’ll just do a gasket set and carrier bearings, starter bush and seals, but that’s it. Crazy how you get lucky sometimes.
(Knock knock..) :wink:
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Clatter
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Clatter » Fri May 27, 2022 1:56 pm

Oh, and that 091 pinion bearing..
Golden info. Much thanks.
Been measuring rollers and they are so different.

Where to get those?
I always just go to Weddle for everything but that hasn’t been working so well lately..
Any other good places to try for parts?
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Bruce2
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Re: Throw It in the Trash, Right?

Post by Bruce2 » Sat May 28, 2022 11:17 pm

My heater is a 1500W heat gun. Takes about 2-3 min, then it's ready to go together.

Watch for bronze bushings in the gear carrier for the forward shift rods. I'm pretty sure Rancho does that to every rebuild. Others do too.
Weddle is a good source, easy to navigate their site.
I get my parts from another supplier, but you are SOL with him. My supplier doesn't sell to individuals in Cali.

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