Type 4 for My Ghia

[jwmorris]

Thanks for the information!

I have the original flywheel from this engine (914) and a flywheel from a bus. I need to take measurements of to verify. I will be using a swing axle transmission. Is there an advantage to using the 914 flywheel?

[Piledriver]

914 FW is already machined for the input shaft bearing.
If you have the matching pressure plate its worth using.
Porsche pressure plate costs more usually.

On a swingaxle trans you will need the TO bearing guide that slides into the trans.

[Bruce.m]

914 flywheel doesn’t fit in a type1 IRS box. I’ve tried.
The ring gear sits deeper than the bellhousing bore machining

[jwmorris]

Thanks everyone. I pulled out some flywheels to compare. I am showing a lightened Type 1 200mm, a flywheel I was told was from a 200mm bus, and the flywheel that came on the 914, 1.7-liter engine. I believe what I was sold as a 200 mm bus may be a conversion flywheel. My Kennedy stage 1, pressure plate appears to fit this flywheel. In the pictures where I am holding the flywheels, the lightened type 1 is on the left, the 210/conversion in the middle, and 914 on the right. In the picture where the flywheels are lying flat on the ground, I am using a 200mm Type 1 clutch disc to illustrate the difference in holding surface area. It is pretty obvious VW thought the Type 4 would have much more torque to control. The blue pressure plate came with the conversion flywheel. I intend to use it for this build. You can also see the difference in the ring gear teeth. It appears the first two flywheels have the same teeth, with the same spacing. The teeth and spacing on the 914 are different. The Type 1 flywheel is forged. It rings so much you have to put your hand on it to stop the sound. The Type 4 flywheels I have are cast, no ringing.

I measured the bottom engine mounting studs on the 914 engine and a 1600cc Type 1 engine case. The stud lengths are very close. I was hoping I could swap the studs to help get the engine in the car. Instead, if I try and put this engine in the car, I will have to remove the bottom studs during install. I must have hit my head, because I would still like to install this engine in the car. Fortunately, the case is made of aluminum and the threads should be durable enough. I wouldn't even consider repeatedly removing the studs from a magnesium case.

[jwmorris]

Email I sent to Techline:

Comments: Hi, I am interested in Techline CBC-1. The instructions say to sandblast (120 grit aluminum oxide) parts before application. I am working on an air-cooled VW engine. Is it safe to sandblast the bearings on this engine? Considering the fact that this engine is air-cooled, what parts of the engine do you recommend I coat and with what product? I also read a note that the product could also be brushed on, what should I use if brushing the product on? Thank you in advance,


Techline's Response:

Thank you for your interest in our coatings for your engine build.
The CBC-1 is a piston top coating, and will also work on the combustion chambers of the heads, and valve faces.
If you are looking to coat the bearing, we recommend our DFL-1. It is a dry film lubricant coating, and works great on any metal to metal surfaces that would benefit from having a friction reducing coating. Piston Side skirts, lifters, cams, bearing and such.

I attached a copy of our catalog, which has an applicator guide in it, that can help you to see what other coatings may be beneficial to you.
On an air cooled engine, you may even want to look at our Carrera TD – which is a thermal dispersant coating that helps to remove heat from the parts it is applied to, Such as cylinders, oil coolers, valve covers, oil pans, and transmission cases.

In some cases our product can be brushed on, but it will use much more material than is needed, and before you bake the part to cure the coating, you will want it to sit a little longer to ensure that the coating has flashed off the solvents.
On the air cooled stuff I have built – usually old 2 Stroke motorcycles and a couple Harley Davidsons, the Thermal Dispersant coating has been awesome. If it was my build, I would definitely look into the various areas to apply it.

Hope this helps, and if you need any more information, please let me know.


I will probably order some DFL-1. The shipping on the coatings cost almost as much as the product, I'm not sure why. I have some old bearings and pistons that I may attempt to coat. I do have not a sandblaster, so I may have to pay someone for that service. If that turns out well. I may do the original parts to this engine along with new valves.

[jwmorris]

I am still reading and researching. Two things concern me, I keep reading that the 1.7 is slow, I keep reading these engines stink. Do type 4 engines stink worse than a Type 1? The only reason I can see for a smelly engine is an oily, dirty engine. Is the 1.7 really that slow or, are people basing that opinion on engines that were worn out and in a poor state of tune? I am not looking for a rocket ship, but I would be disappointed if it only performed like a stock 1600 cc Type 1.

[Piledriver]

A bone stock 1700 914 engine had ~80hp from the factory.
No stock 1600DP ever had more that 65, and that was a T3 with Djet.

The only reason they would "stink" is due to a very bad tune.
(or you are talking to a T1 "guru" who wants to sell you something)

I put >300K miles on the bottom end on my old 914 1.7 (now on the engine stand to get some 96s) went ~400K miles.
It actually did some service in my sons 71 SB with a cali conversion and Webers, and it was FAR from slow.
It then ended up in my 73 squareback...
The cam thrust bearing (half shell) finally went away.(sounded funny)
The original main bearings are still in it with a low mile crank, clearances still in wear spec.

T1 motors rarely make it any significant fraction of that mileage before needing a new engine.

[Bruce.m]

Can’t see how a T4 can “stink” any differently to a type1.

Another argument you will hear for going for a tuned T1 is the T4 is heavier. However, a lot of that weight is in the stock pancake cooling system. If it is converted to upright cooling, the weight difference isn’t significant.

A type4 1.7 isn’t working especially hard if it is pushing a beetle / ghia / type3. With proper servicing you can get a decent life out of it. You do need to make sure the ignition timing is working properly (distributor not worn out etc), because it runs a slightly higher compression ratio and that is less tolerant to off timing.

[jwmorris]

Thank you both for the confirmation! This particular car came with a 36 hp engine. I thought about building one, I started gathering parts, but I really don't think I would be satisfied. Especially, since the parts cost for the small engine is at least as much as building a bigger Type 1. I may build a correct 36 hp engine one day, but for now, I think a type 4 is better for my intentions.

Piledriver, if my engine comes anywhere near that longevity with good performance, I will be ecstatic! I plan on building another car with a high-performance Type 1. In order to have two air-cooled VWs, I need one that I don't have to tinker with too often. I don't want to skimp on regular maintenance, valve adjustments etc., but I don't want to pull the engine apart too often either.

[Piledriver]

What vintage is the transmission?

None of the early splitcases or SAs are going to last long with a t4 or hot t1 hanging on it, perhaps days.

If a t4 goes on a t1 trans, use the t1 lower studs.. I have also used bolts from the transmission side to allow eaiser install.
(was on an 091 trans so had long studs, harder to get into car on engine)

The early cars engine compartment is quite a bit smaller than late cars, so a shoehorn may be required,

Installing engine and trans preassembled is actually a good way of doing it given a transmission jack.
(still only 4 bolts, frame horn bolts and trans nose cone )

[jwmorris]

The car currently has a tunnel type transmission but I am not 100 percent on it's condition. I will change the oil and hope to run it as is for now. Having never driven or ridden in a Type 4 powered vehicle, I really want to get a feel for the engine before I select gear ratios. I plan on pulling the bottom studs and using bolts etc. I do not believe I can get the engine in any other way. I also do not believe installing the transmission and engine together would be much fun on a swing-axle car because of the attached axle tubes. This is a project car that has been apart for years. I still need to do brakes, work on the fuel line, wiring etc. Hopefully having a running engine will motivate me to work faster.

[Piledriver]

Hopefully its at least got a 12v flywheel on it.(or already clearanced)
You may also need to trim off the pulley end ... lift lug? not sure of proper name, its sticking out at the breather chimney and tends to hit the rear apron when trying to persuade the engine to slide in.

Fortunately a T4 is ~an inch narrower than a 1600DP.

[jwmorris]

Thanks for the response. I will check the transmission for clearance and look for a lift lug. I have not made much progress lately. Other projects are keeping me too busy.

[jwmorris]

Well I finally took the time to finish splitting the case on the core engine only to be disappointed. I am sure this can be fixed but at what cost, and is it worth it? It appears there were some oiling issues when this happened. The bearing surfaces that fit against the case are discolored. I guess I am back to deciding between a 36 hp engine or a 2165 Type 1.

[jwmorris]

By the way, LN Engineering is having a pretty good sale.