Hi !
My name is Henrik Ottosson and I'm from Sweden...
I have a porsche 914 engine in my -55 oval and I used 71x96 2056cc...I'm going to build a new engine and use the case and heads from the porsche engine...I want to reach minimum of 180-200 bhp and are willing to change the fuel system if nececary..
The heads are ported/polisched with 46/40 valves. etc...
BAS 1 7/8 header 4-1 system with a 2,5 inch fullflow muffler.
Upprigth cooling with 2 external oil-coolers.
Dual dellorto 45's
Stock rockers/rockershafts...etc
I want the car to be streetusable for shorter trips..I use a Porsche 5 speed 901 gearbox and quilfie limited slip diffrential, Porsche CV's and axles.
I want minimum of 78mm stoke and 103 mm bigbore...
I want to have a engine with lot of power in the lower area and rev. max 6500-7000 rpm..
Imortent is a BIG motor minimum of 2,6 Liter..
CAM ?
CAMGEAR ?
LIFTERS ?
RODS / LENGTH ?
CRANK ?
PISTONS / CYLINDERS ?
OIL PUMP ?
My Buget for the long block is $2000-3000 exept for the parts I have got...
Give me some ideas where to start...
Crank-Rods-Pistons...etc...
------------------
Henrik from Sweden
VW type1-50,-55,-67
200hp Type 4 engine.
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turboteener
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Go with a webcam, starting about 284-300 advertised duration. .500-.550, matching lifters. Counterwieghted stroker stock crank or Billet aftermarket piece. Dry sump the motor. Look for 9.5:1 compression with a set of dual plug heads with the 103s or drop back to a 96mm set up and build a 2270. Yes a 2270 is capable of 200 in street trim. Get a good exhaust system and match it to a good induction setup probably fuel injection. Make sure the heads can support the airflow needed by the bigger motor. Get a five angle valve job and some custom valve work. Pauter, Scat, Eagle rods should be fine. Be ready to make some sacrifices for the kind of HP you are looking for.
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
You can probably get 200, but with the budget you have it will be tough....This much power lies in the combination of parts...I have a combo that i will be able to build in 3 months, it has been over 200 in every calculation I have done (which is normally +/- 5% at most to actual dyno runs)
This kind of power out of a 2270 is not easy to get. My std 2270 makes 150HP, abut 160 lb/ft of torque...
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
This kind of power out of a 2270 is not easy to get. My std 2270 makes 150HP, abut 160 lb/ft of torque...
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
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turboteener
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
I forget my idea of budget and other peoples idea of a budget are totally different. I have found and I think most of the forum will agree with me it is cheaper to build it once for more than three times for less.
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Searoy
- Posts: 2869
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Hi,
Welcome to the Shop Talk Forums, and the Type 4um. Your question is very common. Lots of folks come in asking for "How do I make xxx horsepower?" or "How much power will an 2XXX motor make?" You have to remember that the Type 4 is a money pig. It will make good power, and live a long time, but to make wild power it will not live as long. Either way you are looking at more budget than you have currently, I think.
My best suggestion is to do whatever Jake Raby and John Connolly say. They know. They build Type 4 engines of all sizes. They know both the benefits and drawbacks of each option. They also care about quality engines. If you care to hear other, less experienced options, then read on to my ramblings.
103 pistons will run you $500 or more for the set. Many of the cylinders that come with that set are of poor craftsmanship, and require an expert machinist several hours to correct. This will add significant cost to your project. $1000 for a worked and ready set of forged 103 pistons would not be out of the question. What you wind up with is a set of pistons that may well last about 50,000-75,000km (max). I don't know how much you drive in a year, but this would last me between 2 and 3 years. To me, that's good. For others, that's not. 105s are available as well, for at least $100 more than the 103s, but expect the same or more machine work required, as well as shorter life, as low as 30,000km.
A good counterweighted and balanced stroker crank will cost at least $500 (shipped). Higher quality cranks exist, but cost much more. One person here on the forum has a very high quality 80mm crank that is a forged 1 pc unit for sale, complete with rods. He's asking $1500 for the set, which is a good deal for perhaps the highest quality unit available (the rods are over $300 themselves).
Your cam should be a Webcam 163/86b grind, or 86b/86c grind. The 163/86b has .500" (12.7mm) lift, 250 degrees intake and 260 degrees exhaust duration. This split duration cam will make mad torque, but may not rev as high as you like. Then again, it may. It's right there close. The 86b/86c cam has .007" moreintake lift than the exhaust (.507i/.500e), with durations of 260 and 272 respectively. That means it should rev a litttle higher without loss in torque. Both should allow you to run mid 8 to high 8 compression, perhaps as much as 9.0, but more experienced folks than me would know better what is possible. Your compression max allowable will be determined not only my your cam but also your timing and chamber shape. Very complicated math, and a long topic to discuss. Either camshaft I mentioned will make you happy, I think.
When using the Webcam, their lifters and cam gears are the best choice. Keep them as a matched set, rather than mixing makers. You're looking at at least $200 for a quality cam/lifters/gear set from Webcam.
105x80 = 2771. With a Webcam 86b/86c and mid 8 compression? I think 200 is very possible. Expect to clean up the heads and hone the cylinders every year or every other year. You may even need to replace the cylinders, including remachining them. To have an engine this large certain prices must be paid.
Another person here on the 4um has made a custom set of pistons and cylinders which do not have the poor craftsmanship problems, and have a design which should allow double the life over a set of 103s, perhaps longer. These pistons are 102mm, so are a slight decrease in size over what you stated earlier. They also will cost over $2000. The benefit is that the cylinders won't require any extra work to correct poor craftsmanship, and will outlast 2 or 3 sets of 103mm pistons. In the long run you will spend less on the 102s, but up front you will spend twice as much.
103x78 is 2600.
102x80 is 2615.
Very much the same.
I would like a 105x80 I think, but I am less concered with longevity with an engine this size. Still, the cost benefits of the 102s over time make them very attractive. besides, the more he sells the less they'll cost. Right Shad?
You could always keep the engine you have now and sipmly add a turbocharger. Cost less actually, and could make more than 200hp.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
Welcome to the Shop Talk Forums, and the Type 4um. Your question is very common. Lots of folks come in asking for "How do I make xxx horsepower?" or "How much power will an 2XXX motor make?" You have to remember that the Type 4 is a money pig. It will make good power, and live a long time, but to make wild power it will not live as long. Either way you are looking at more budget than you have currently, I think.
My best suggestion is to do whatever Jake Raby and John Connolly say. They know. They build Type 4 engines of all sizes. They know both the benefits and drawbacks of each option. They also care about quality engines. If you care to hear other, less experienced options, then read on to my ramblings.
103 pistons will run you $500 or more for the set. Many of the cylinders that come with that set are of poor craftsmanship, and require an expert machinist several hours to correct. This will add significant cost to your project. $1000 for a worked and ready set of forged 103 pistons would not be out of the question. What you wind up with is a set of pistons that may well last about 50,000-75,000km (max). I don't know how much you drive in a year, but this would last me between 2 and 3 years. To me, that's good. For others, that's not. 105s are available as well, for at least $100 more than the 103s, but expect the same or more machine work required, as well as shorter life, as low as 30,000km.
A good counterweighted and balanced stroker crank will cost at least $500 (shipped). Higher quality cranks exist, but cost much more. One person here on the forum has a very high quality 80mm crank that is a forged 1 pc unit for sale, complete with rods. He's asking $1500 for the set, which is a good deal for perhaps the highest quality unit available (the rods are over $300 themselves).
Your cam should be a Webcam 163/86b grind, or 86b/86c grind. The 163/86b has .500" (12.7mm) lift, 250 degrees intake and 260 degrees exhaust duration. This split duration cam will make mad torque, but may not rev as high as you like. Then again, it may. It's right there close. The 86b/86c cam has .007" moreintake lift than the exhaust (.507i/.500e), with durations of 260 and 272 respectively. That means it should rev a litttle higher without loss in torque. Both should allow you to run mid 8 to high 8 compression, perhaps as much as 9.0, but more experienced folks than me would know better what is possible. Your compression max allowable will be determined not only my your cam but also your timing and chamber shape. Very complicated math, and a long topic to discuss. Either camshaft I mentioned will make you happy, I think.
When using the Webcam, their lifters and cam gears are the best choice. Keep them as a matched set, rather than mixing makers. You're looking at at least $200 for a quality cam/lifters/gear set from Webcam.
105x80 = 2771. With a Webcam 86b/86c and mid 8 compression? I think 200 is very possible. Expect to clean up the heads and hone the cylinders every year or every other year. You may even need to replace the cylinders, including remachining them. To have an engine this large certain prices must be paid.
Another person here on the 4um has made a custom set of pistons and cylinders which do not have the poor craftsmanship problems, and have a design which should allow double the life over a set of 103s, perhaps longer. These pistons are 102mm, so are a slight decrease in size over what you stated earlier. They also will cost over $2000. The benefit is that the cylinders won't require any extra work to correct poor craftsmanship, and will outlast 2 or 3 sets of 103mm pistons. In the long run you will spend less on the 102s, but up front you will spend twice as much.
103x78 is 2600.
102x80 is 2615.
Very much the same.
I would like a 105x80 I think, but I am less concered with longevity with an engine this size. Still, the cost benefits of the 102s over time make them very attractive. besides, the more he sells the less they'll cost. Right Shad?
You could always keep the engine you have now and sipmly add a turbocharger. Cost less actually, and could make more than 200hp.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
-
Kevin J Hale
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
What kind of preparation has to take place to make 200 plus horsepower with a relatively low displacement T-IV?
How will the heads hold up to the increased back pressure from the turbo system?
How will the heads hold up to the increased back pressure from the turbo system?
-
Searoy
- Posts: 2869
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Originally posted by Kevin J Hale:
What kind of preparation has to take place to make 200 plus horsepower with a relatively low displacement T-IV?
Well, you could rev the snot out of it. Balance it well, get a big cam, big heads, big carbs, big exhaust, big wallet and a big tach. 200 hp is 200 ft/lb of torque at 5250 RPM, but it's only 140 ft/lb of torque at 7500 RPM, and 131 at 8000!
How will the heads hold up to the increased back pressure from the turbo system?
Not well. More has to be done to keep them from leaking. They leak even when there is no boost, so turbo pressure would be worse I think.
It can be done, but turbo theory from Type 1s is a little different. Look in the Forced Induction Forum for a post about a 914 with a turbo Type 4 engine and Bosche CIS fuel injection. Pretty nice setup.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
What kind of preparation has to take place to make 200 plus horsepower with a relatively low displacement T-IV?
Well, you could rev the snot out of it. Balance it well, get a big cam, big heads, big carbs, big exhaust, big wallet and a big tach. 200 hp is 200 ft/lb of torque at 5250 RPM, but it's only 140 ft/lb of torque at 7500 RPM, and 131 at 8000!
How will the heads hold up to the increased back pressure from the turbo system?
Not well. More has to be done to keep them from leaking. They leak even when there is no boost, so turbo pressure would be worse I think.
It can be done, but turbo theory from Type 1s is a little different. Look in the Forced Induction Forum for a post about a 914 with a turbo Type 4 engine and Bosche CIS fuel injection. Pretty nice setup.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
-
MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
It takes a very highly tuned version of a smaller engine to make 200 HP. The engine I'm currently working on for R&D has everything lightweight and will make the 200 mark. This engine has 11:1 and really big everything, except bore....
I have been mocking and trial fitting this thing for 4 months, I will tear it down until it breaks 200, guaranteed...
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I have been mocking and trial fitting this thing for 4 months, I will tear it down until it breaks 200, guaranteed...
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
-
Dave_Darling
- Posts: 2534
- Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2000 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
I know someone who used to make right about 200 HP with a stock-displacement (1971cc) 2.0 motor. Normally aspirated.
It ran 14:1 compression and was worthless below about 4500 RPM. He had more money in his heavily-modified 1.7 heads than most 914 folks have in their whole cars, and he had to tear the thing down every year or so--if everything went right.
Serious TToD contender at any race it showed up to--a fantastic driver, 200 HP, and 1600# weight without driver, all help that.
Totally unsuitable for the street. He has since moved up to ~2.1 liters and more power. (He won't tell me the specs--rats...) And 200# less weight on the car. Still totally unsuitable for the street.
If Jake can make 200 streetable reliable HP out of a 1971cc (or even a 2000cc) I will be very impressed. Then again, if anyone can, it'll probably be Jake...
BTW, the above car did not have head sealing problems. I don't know how the heads are sealed, but I'm pretty sure he does not have a 5-stud or 6-stud setup.
--DD
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1974 VW-Porsche 914 2.0 (Type IV powered!)
http://www.pelicanparts.com
It ran 14:1 compression and was worthless below about 4500 RPM. He had more money in his heavily-modified 1.7 heads than most 914 folks have in their whole cars, and he had to tear the thing down every year or so--if everything went right.
Serious TToD contender at any race it showed up to--a fantastic driver, 200 HP, and 1600# weight without driver, all help that.
Totally unsuitable for the street. He has since moved up to ~2.1 liters and more power. (He won't tell me the specs--rats...) And 200# less weight on the car. Still totally unsuitable for the street.
If Jake can make 200 streetable reliable HP out of a 1971cc (or even a 2000cc) I will be very impressed. Then again, if anyone can, it'll probably be Jake...
BTW, the above car did not have head sealing problems. I don't know how the heads are sealed, but I'm pretty sure he does not have a 5-stud or 6-stud setup.
--DD
------------------
1974 VW-Porsche 914 2.0 (Type IV powered!)
http://www.pelicanparts.com
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Kevin J Hale
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
I'm sorry, I forgot to say that the engine would be turbo-charged.
That's 200 hp from a 2.0L turbocharged T-IV
That's 200 hp from a 2.0L turbocharged T-IV
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Thats not hard! Already done it! I built the engine and the customer added a Rajay Turbo, and Electromotive TEC II system, made 214 on a chassis dyno and he had never built anything before, or even worked on a car, he was a Briggs and Stratton shop (small engines) and did a great job on it, he drives it almost daily, in a 914!
[This message has been edited by MASSIVE TYPE IV (edited 12-31-2001).]
[This message has been edited by MASSIVE TYPE IV (edited 12-31-2001).]
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Kevin J Hale
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
What special things had to be done to "turbo-proof" the engine?
CR?
Cam?
Valve size & port work?
How can I contact the owner/driver to see how the car runs...driveability, fuel economy, etc.
Thanks in advance
CR?
Cam?
Valve size & port work?
How can I contact the owner/driver to see how the car runs...driveability, fuel economy, etc.
Thanks in advance
-
effvee
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Hi Sweden, please, please, please don't rule out TURBO CHARGING. That 200 horses not a problem and if you get your 2.6 liter engine even more around 4000 rpm. That turbo is lost energy. Things that make you go hmmmmm.
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hotvw55
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Hi and thanks for all the ideas and information...
Ok 200 hp is not that importent...My 2056 that I ran last summer did som great impression on me and my friends...It was tuned in by a VW guy here in Sweden and it breaked 146bhp (on the wheels)11-11,5 in compression. I did not build the engine and I bougth it as it was, just tared it apart and changed berings and gaskets and finisched up the heads with new valves etc. This engine had a homegrinded rallycross cam and it performed very well in the upper regions. from 4000-6800 but was nearly dead in the lower section...So 200 hp is as said not that importent. I would like to have a big engine with lot of tourqe that still could rev 6500-7000 rpm, and have the car used as a driveable street car but with top end power....
Is it better to use a smaller engine 80-82 / 96 or shall I go for the big one..
Loss or Benefit of a small versus a big engine?
At this moment there is 2 different ways to walk, big engine with lot of bottom and a smaller schreamer engine with lot of top end power... I will listen to you pro's... Where shall I start ?
As said forgett the 200 hp and give me ideas on where to start with a motor that could be driven on a road..
Where could I get a good long lasting set of 103-105 ? If I shall go with them..
Is it better to put a lot of money on the crank and go far the smaller engine...
If I use a 103-105mm set and 8-8,5 compression, do I still have to use the 5 head studd ? or could copper gaskets do the job ?
As I live in Sweden we don have that long season only 4-5 month max, I dont drive the car much 5000-6000 km a year """max""" so 75000km is like forever for me...
Recomended crank/rods"length" for my application ?
I'm not interested in using a turbo...I sill want this to be a "Original car" without cuting up the whole engine compartment..
I'm greatfull for all the information and the interest that you people have shown me...It is fantastic that all you Type 4-Gurus are so helpfull...
I'm still hungry for more information...
------------------
Henrik from Sweden
VW type1-50,-55,-67
Ok 200 hp is not that importent...My 2056 that I ran last summer did som great impression on me and my friends...It was tuned in by a VW guy here in Sweden and it breaked 146bhp (on the wheels)11-11,5 in compression. I did not build the engine and I bougth it as it was, just tared it apart and changed berings and gaskets and finisched up the heads with new valves etc. This engine had a homegrinded rallycross cam and it performed very well in the upper regions. from 4000-6800 but was nearly dead in the lower section...So 200 hp is as said not that importent. I would like to have a big engine with lot of tourqe that still could rev 6500-7000 rpm, and have the car used as a driveable street car but with top end power....
Is it better to use a smaller engine 80-82 / 96 or shall I go for the big one..
Loss or Benefit of a small versus a big engine?
At this moment there is 2 different ways to walk, big engine with lot of bottom and a smaller schreamer engine with lot of top end power... I will listen to you pro's... Where shall I start ?
As said forgett the 200 hp and give me ideas on where to start with a motor that could be driven on a road..
Where could I get a good long lasting set of 103-105 ? If I shall go with them..
Is it better to put a lot of money on the crank and go far the smaller engine...
If I use a 103-105mm set and 8-8,5 compression, do I still have to use the 5 head studd ? or could copper gaskets do the job ?
As I live in Sweden we don have that long season only 4-5 month max, I dont drive the car much 5000-6000 km a year """max""" so 75000km is like forever for me...
Recomended crank/rods"length" for my application ?
I'm not interested in using a turbo...I sill want this to be a "Original car" without cuting up the whole engine compartment..
I'm greatfull for all the information and the interest that you people have shown me...It is fantastic that all you Type 4-Gurus are so helpfull...
I'm still hungry for more information...
------------------
Henrik from Sweden
VW type1-50,-55,-67
-
Crimson_Axe
- Posts: 596
- Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:01 am
200hp Type 4 engine.
Shad, is making a set of 102's that would last alot longer than the current 103's and 105's for street use.