MS1 v3 type 4 startup problems

[David, Lule]

Hi.
I have not been here for a while. Bought a house, got kids etc. My type3 with a MS type 4 engine have been lying around and been waiting. Now I've finally gotten in to this again and determined to get it running and let my kids have a childhood in a type 3. But I am stuck. It wont start and I have forgotten everything since 2011 when I got the MS system and started this project.

The car is a -67 fastback.
The engine is a type 4, from the beginning an AN 1,8 85hp carburated from a VW 412. Then I have the crank and cylinders from a 2,0 litre GE engine and a CB cam, a mild one, but I dont remember wich one. The heads are flycut and the CR is 8,5:1.

I drove the car for a year with the original Solex 40 carbs. But then I decided to go FI and adapted a FI from a 80hp type 4 engine. Now it have high impendance injectors from a SAAB 9-5 and all Volvo 850 bosch temp sensors and TPS.

Since the engine was in the car and I didn't wanted to take it out back then I decided to go with the distributor as trigger. I have rephased it to 65deg BTDC and have an aftermarket pointless trigger in it. The MS is adapted for the trigger.

The MS is a MS1 v3 and I have bought it from a guy that did build a lot of units. I had the car running a lot of years ago with the original low impendance injectors, but it did not respond to any tuning and ran like a rattle. I decided that the 40 year old injectors had to be changed and I converted it to more modern stuff.








My problem now is that when cranking, the ignition ignite against the rotation. But when I let the starter of, a poff comes from the engine. Not every time, but ocasionally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=z1MQ-881atI

It is no differens how I change the crancing avance timing, the trigger angle, the fixed angle. When it ignite against the rotation when cranking, I would assume that a later timing would help. But not a difference at all.

Could you please help me what to do next?

(I tried to attach the msq file, but I could not. How do I do?)

[ps2375]

First thing I would do is get a timing light on it and sync the IGN. Then you know if the other settings are good.

[Bruce.m]

Looks like the distributor cap & leads are still allocating the spark to each plug?

If you have indexed the distributor away from the stock position, is the rotor arm pointing at the correct contact in the cap? You may have to swap the leads around & also check the rotor isnt between contacts at spark time.

Also assuming the distributor advance is locked out?

Dub Shop are currently beta testing a small batch of a new product. A distributor replacement that contains a small trigger wheel & hall sensor that would be a worthwhile upgrade in time although I don’t know what that will cost.

[Bruce.m]

Link to the dubshop preview oage:

https://thedubshop.com/mini-cam-sync-v2/

[David, Lule]

First thing I would do is get a timing light on it and sync the IGN. Then you know if the other settings are good.

Hi. The MS manual stated that the timing should be set up static and when started with a fix angle the fine tuning should be done with a timinglight. I did the static part. But went out this morning before work and conected the timing light. Here was error no 1.

When I had the distributor apart I have obviously put the mecanical conector on the botton 180 deg wrong. Now I have tyrned the distributor 180 deg and get the strob flashing over the right mark on the fan. ( but with 180 deg wrong, Wouldn't it have worked anyway? not with the timinglight for no 1 spark, but for the 3rd?)

Anyway now with the distributor 180 deg around and the strob telling me that I am right, I tried an starta attempt, conected the fuelpump and... Still nothing, ocasionally it fires when I let go of the key. But it is not firing against the rotation as it did earlier.

Looks like the distributor cap & leads are still allocating the spark to each plug?

If you have indexed the distributor away from the stock position, is the rotor arm pointing at the correct contact in the cap? You may have to swap the leads around & also check the rotor isnt between contacts at spark time.

Also assuming the distributor advance is locked out?

Yes the distributor are still allocating the spark to each plug.

When rephasing the distributor, I locked all centrifugal spark advance mechanism in the bottom and removed the vacum parts. Then I fixed the axle and the center of the rotor pointing at the no 1 mark in the distributor. I had a special made plate with degree-marks on the shaft between the rotor and trigger to measure the angle. After that I turned it 22 degrees more (44 crankdegrees) to get the triggerpoint att 64 BTDC and the rotor pointing towards the no1 sparkvire at 20 deg BTDC

With the axle in 64 deg position I turned the mounting plate for the points counterclockwise until my testlight turned of. The 64 deg was an aim for a little more than 60 deg since the manual says it have to be more than 60 deg BTDC.). Doubble checked many times before I put two tackwelds to lock everything up.


When cranking with the strobe-light today, After a while the strobe started to give two flashes quickly after each other one on the static timing mark and one aprox 20 deg before. Wierd...
I tried to move the strobe sensor to the spark wire on the opposite side, No3, then I did not get the flash even close to the timing marks. But here it was only one flash at each rev.,

Shouldn't it have the same timing on the no 3 as on the no 1 ? But it is not so easy to read marks with the timing light when cranking. It is not as many flashes as when the engine is running.

One error detected, What could be the next?

BTW the battery is new and fully charged.

[Bruce.m]

Could the ECU be acting on the trailing edge of the “points” triggers? Ie when the signal goes from 12v to 0v instead of 0v to 12v.

Hall sensors are a ground sink so the ECU acts on the falling signal. so ECUs often default to that setting.

[David, Lule]

I do not know if it is a hall sensor. It is a part that replaces the points and condensator.

Like this one. The ring that is fitted on the shaft is slightly magnetic.


https://carlightbulb.com/sv-se/products ... iiEALw_wcB

According to the manual I did use the "aftermarket electronic ignition" setup for distributor.

[David, Lule]

The timing and cranking Settings.
Does it seems right?

IMG_1048.jpeg

IMG_1049.jpeg

[ps2375]

Are you getting more that 300rpm? Can you set it lower, I can't remember what it will go down to. If you don't exceed 300rpm, it won't spark or send fuel. I like to set fixed angle and cranking advance both to "0" to get a good sync. TDC is an easier mark to see generally.

[David, Lule]

The setting above is the one I have tried to start with. For the sync, while cranking, I had it fixed to 0. But now for a first start I have it on 8. (Have tried 0, 10, 5, and the -10 for the table. ) the 8 is because of the original timing mark of 7,5 on the fan.


The cranking RPM setting, isn’t it that it have to be above the actual cranking RPM to engage the cranking settings? I crank at approx. 190rpm therefore I set this 100RPM higher.

Have I really got this wrong?

[Bruce.m]

Tried a quick search for the MS1 manual but wasn’t seeing those exact screens.

The cranking rpm used to figure out when to switch from cranking settings to normal running tables. Either at that rpm or perhaps with a buffer added.

Fuel & spark is activated below that value, using the cranking settings

[ps2375]

https://www.msextra.com/manuals/

Maybe download and install MS1/Extra version at the downloads page to get what these manuals show. No need for "hi res" version.

The "crank timing" setting seems wrong for a distributer triggered setup, Ignition options should have MSnS enabled for your setup.

[Bruce.m]

Ta.

Does the ECU trigger the stock coil directly?
If so the ECU output needs set to inverted, according to the manual.

[David, Lule]

https://www.msextra.com/manuals/

Maybe download and install MS1/Extra version at the downloads page to get what these manuals show. No need for "hi res" version.

The "crank timing" setting seems wrong for a distributer triggered setup, Ignition options should have MSnS enabled for your setup.

The MSnS is enabled. I have gone through the manual and checked all my options twice.

Ta.

Does the ECU trigger the stock coil directly?
If so the ECU output needs set to inverted, according to the manual.

Yes the ECU is triggering the coil directly. I hadn't the output to inverted so I changed and new strange fenomenons occured.


Let's see if I can explain what's happening. 8All turning below is while cranking)

With the ECU output set to inverted I lost the spark. But only at no1 sparkwire ( all sparks further on referred as flashes at the strobelight) When testing all other cables there are a spark, but not on no1

I switched the sparkwire to an other one, I switched between the other outputs on the distributor but the one conected to no1 slot did not spark.
When I conected the light to the wire from the coil to the center of thedistributor cap I got uneven flashes.
Like this:
-_*_*_*_-_*_*_*_-_*_*_*_-_*_*_*_-_*_*_*
As on the sparkwires. The no1 is missing

Then I conected a testlight on the negative side of the coil. It did flash in an even pattern:

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

But the no1 sparkwire still missing. Tried with a new distributor cap, sparkplug and wire on the no1 again. No difference. Also a try with an other coil. nothing, I also removed and turned the ring on the distributor shaft tht trigger the sensor. The error did not move and is still on the No1

Then I remember the change in the settings, to inverted. Changed it back. Then I got the spark back in the No1. But with the double flash. All but the no 1 have even flashes, but the no1 have doubble flashes. One of then right on the mark on the fan. The other one close to that.

All but the no1
*_______*_______*_______*_______*_______

The No1
**______**______**______**______**______

The testlight to the negative side of the coil was on on the coil in inverted mode and flashed as it went of. In the not inverted the light was of ans flashed as in turned on. But it is still an even pattern in the flashes (on the coil. Not the hi volt output. )


Could this be some kind of hardware error in the ECU? I getting out of ideas.

[Bruce.m]

If the trigger wire to the coil “negative”(from the ECU) is regular & consistent, the ECU would seem fine.

If one plug output is off and the rest are fine, it suggests the wire, cap or rotor is the problem