8v watercooled VW

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:33 pm

I have already talked with some of you about swapping the 8v inline four from newer VWs. I am however still looking for more info. If you know of others who have done swaps or have done one yourself let me know. I am particularly interested on vehicles that are driven mostly on the street.

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:56 pm

I did this swap in 1997. Pictures and descriptions. Click the link.
http://community.webshots.com/album/17899373RNzGkeGgim

Mike T

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:36 pm

Nice, so what do you think about the power? I imagine that you have a 1.6l in there. I just got a lead on a 1.8l. So I'm going to try to pursue that. I'd also like to use the CIS injection instead of carbs. Do you know what the dimensions of the radiator are? I have one but it's not a VW one. Thanks

VWDragon · Post by **VWDragon** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:14 am

Mike T,

How did you get it in there without modifying the deck lid? Would have never believed it fit until I saw your pics....Course, never thought about putting one in a regular beetle until Goatmaster started asking about it. What do you think of the weight difference?

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by VWDragon:
Mike T,

How did you get it in there without modifying the deck lid? Would have never believed it fit until I saw your pics....Course, never thought about putting one in a regular beetle until Goatmaster started asking about it. What do you think of the weight difference? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the decklid is slightly modified. White is a good color to disguise things like that, but if you look at the side view photo you can see the bulge behind the liscence plate holder/light. I convinced myself the bulge was worth it to get that engine in the car.
Elsewhere on this forum is a discussion of weight comparison. The H2o 8v I4 is supposed to weigh only 16 lbs more than the flat engine it replaces. I didn’t verify that but I didn’t have to reset the t-bars. The mass of the I4 engine is situated a bit higher in the car than the Flat 4 so it feels a little different in hard corners. Day to day driving it’s really not that different. You would really have to be very dialed into the way your car handles, maybe an avid autocrosser, to detect it.

Mike T.

VWDragon · Post by **VWDragon** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:45 pm

Mike T.,

The reason I asked about the weight difference (and I had been told it wasn't that different), was due to the way it feels. I should have clarified what I was trying to say. I've got a 1.7L I4 in my baja and with the weight being centered instead of spread out, you can really tell a difference, but it amy also be due to the suspension differences over stock set ups.

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by goatmaster187:
Nice, so what do you think about the power? I imagine that you have a 1.6l in there. I just got a lead on a 1.8l. So I'm going to try to pursue that. I'd also like to use the CIS injection instead of carbs. Do you know what the dimensions of the radiator are? I have one but it's not a VW one. Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The power is very good. The watercooled I4 engine seems to have more usable torque in the rpm ranges that you drive in for day to day use. I am extremely happy with the way it turned out.
The engine is a 1.8L from a 1988 Jetta. Hydraulic lifter smake the engine so quiet all you hear is exhaust.
Converting to FI is my next project. The carb was just quicker and fit better. The CIS manifold will require decklid clearancing.
The radiator that is in the car now is a Scirocco type. Wider than the one I built the car with. Still fits fine. Actually that radiator is used by bracket racers in V8 powered Camaros and Mustangs. Check out a Summit or Jegs catalog.

Mike T.

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 2:06 am

Perhaps some of the engine weight is offset by the extra cooling system parts that are often situated in the front of the car.

H2OSB · Post by **H2OSB** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:16 pm

Mike T's car was actually the first Beetle *I'd* ever seen a watercooled engine swap web page about numerous years ago.

Over the years I've researched this swap (and found it's NOWHERE near as difficult as one might imagine) and believe the previous post is correct...the weight you add over the front of that car (if you install the radiator up there as Mike T did and as I'm doing) is quite a bit more than the amount added over the rear giving an overall better balance to the car. If, as I'm doing, you mount the battery up front as well, you get much closer to a 50/50 front to rear weight bias, eliminating some of the heavy ass-end problems associated with rear engine cars.

Mike T is correct, the watercooled inline four is only 16 lbs heavier than a type I (that's a longblock to longblock comparison which comes directly out of the Kennedy installation manual.).

Another thing I've discovered is it's possible to run decklid standoffs and no pulley covers on the engine and remove the need to modify the decklid for clearence. No offense to Mike, but I just don't like the way the decklid looks with that bulge.

One problem that occurs when using Rabbit/Golf FI in this swap is interference with the driver's side decklid mount <how did you get around this Mike?>, however I'm currently investigating the possibility of using a late model crossflow head with a modified earlier A2 intake manifold to locate the throttle body towards the center of the firewall. I'll report back here with my findings.

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johnL (aka H2OSB)

H2OSB · Post by **H2OSB** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:20 pm

AH...I just relooked at Mike's page and saw he's using and Omni intake with a Weber Progressive. Interesting solution.

I actually intend to use a SDS aftermarket FI and ignition based mostly around late model Digifant and Motronic FI parts.

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johnL (aka H2OSB)

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:48 pm

It's funny that you mention the later crossflow engine. I just picked up my donor motor which is a 2.0l crossflow. I didn't get my order in early enough to Kennedy so I'll have to wait til Mon. If anyone has info on this particular swap I'd appreciate it. From what understand the Kenndedy kit sits the engine in there at a 15 degree angle. With the additional size of the 2.0l manifold I'm not sure that the top of the engine will fir in there as well as the non-crossflow style 8v's. What do you all think.

H2OSB · Post by **H2OSB** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:00 am

Goatmaster--

NO, I'm SURE the crossflow intake will NOT fit under the decklid. That thing is massive. It is relatively easy to to switch over to the earlier style head.

What I'm doing (well, planning to do) is use the earlier style shortblock (your 2.0L shortblock is taller by 16mm.) with the late crossflow head. The only way to get this to work though is to use a modified older style intake manifold. The reason the maniflod must be modified is the earlier manifold bolts on like this oOo while the later manifold has the bolts on the top and bottom.

Also, the crossflow manifold mounts the injectors in the manifold itself while the earlier heads mounts the injectors in the head casting.

HTH

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johnL (aka H2OSB)

[This message has been edited by H2OSB (edited 11-02-2002).]

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 12:00 pm

I'd like to stick with the crossflow head and intake. It may be more troublesome to fit it but I think that the extra power over a 1.8l will be worth it. I'm not afraid to pull out the tin snips on this project either, as not much mechanical remains stock on my car.

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by H2OSB:
AH...I just relooked at Mike's page and saw he's using and Omni intake with a Weber Progressive. Interesting solution.

I actually intend to use a SDS aftermarket FI and ignition based mostly around late model Digifant and Motronic FI parts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did that swap in 1996. I had not seen or heard of one done previous to that. At least as a full body street car.

The weight in front does balance the car a bit better and may help to do away with the Super Shimmies. It also helps the car get closer to 50/50 front/rear weight distribution which is desirable. But one affect of adding weight to the extreme ends of the car is increased polar moment. With the weight out at the ends of the car it reacts slower to steering inputs. This makes the car less nimble in quick manuevers like autocrossing but more stable at high speeds, such as road racing. I think for street driving it actuallly improves the feel of the car.

I ran decklid standoffs back when they first showed up in the VW scene(I'm showing my age here...) People kept telling me I had left my trunk open! Does that happen to anybody else? That, and when it rains your engine gets wet. Leaving the pully cover off will allow me to make a smaller bulge. It *is* ugly but I like it better than standoffs. (sorry).

I'm looking at electronic FI and trying to come up with an intake manifold that will clear everything and still flow well.

Anyone ever see a Quad4 intake manifold. Looks sort of like a set of shorty headers. I've also thought of adapting a CIS throttle body to the Omni manifold I have on the car now,I don't know if it really flows enough air to be worth it.

Here is the EFI I'm looking at: http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

Mike T.

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:13 am

Mike T whats your website bro?