Bosch 050?

Podunkjr · Post by **Podunkjr** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:47 pm

I finally got my T4 out of long-term storage this weekend and tore it completely apart. It had a Bosch 050 distributor on it. How well does this distributor work on the T4 engine? If it works better than the 009, then I'll run it until I can get a Mallory. Thanks for the help.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:06 am

Worse than a 009 in my opinion... ALOT of guys love them but I have seen nothing but poor, mistuned idling with them. They have alot of advance inside them so they set up at zero to go 38 full... Not good for down low power and clean spark plugs..

Post by **Marc** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:37 am

It's popular for 356s and the most common distributor found on 914s that have been converted to carburetion - results are mixed:
http://www.912registry.org/tech/ignition.htm
...can be harder to find cap & rotor for than a stock unit or 009 also.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/sho ... ti_pg3.htm

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:30 pm

The 356 has a more optimum combustion chamber in the head partly due to the strongly angled exhaust valve. Its more semi-sferical.

That better combustion chamber is probably the reason the 356 engine can endure the more aggressive spark timing advance...

Different engines, different 'best' components.

Greetings,
Walter

vwfye · Post by **vwfye** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:53 pm

man, every vw mod i make seems to be wrong. i won't run anything but an 050 in a car. i set the timing at 3 btdc @ idle with all the timing coming in at 2500rpm and i get a total 30.5 btdc timing. every car i have used them in, from my stocker 1500sp to my 2332cc have shown drastic improvement in performance and MPG over the 009 or even stock units.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:24 pm

Thats the whole issue.. The timing is absolutely dead !

Almost even engine I test likes the initial advance set to atleast 9 degrees, most like them in the 13-14 degree range if they have a wild cam. The fuel plots between the different distributors is amazing.

The 050 idles totally retarded, thats not good for any aspect of the engine.

I have directly tested the 009, 050 and Mallory against each other many times. Maybe later I'll post the same engine with the different dizzys.

Podunkjr · Post by **Podunkjr** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:41 pm

Thanks Jake and everyone for the replys and input. I'll be adding the 050 to the pile of parts to sell off.....

Bruce2 · Post by **Bruce2** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:53 pm

[quote="MASSIVE TYPE IV"]
The 050 idles totally retarded, thats not good for any aspect of the engine.
quote]

I totally disagree. In cold weather this distributor is ideal. Its a he!! of a lot easier to start your engine when the timing is retarded. Even though I am using an 009 right now, I retard it 5º for winter driving. I still get the odd morning when the engine stops turning briefly while cranking. If I had the 050 in it I could set the idle timing to 3-4º and still have 34º total.

A second advantage is a huge reduction in idle HC. For anyone that lives where you have to go through an annual smog test, the reduced advance at idle helps burn the fuel more completely, radically reducing HC emissions. And since you still get full advance above 2500-3000, there's no loss in power. For a drag car, or for spirited driving at elevated RPMs there is no downside.

I converted my 050 to take a 009 cap, rotor, and points.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:50 pm

Thats the craziest thing I have ever heard!

Glad it works for you though.

My 912 idles at 13 degrees and fires up with dual 44s in 15 degree weather and idles at 600 RPM within 10-15 seconds.

Put a Mallory in it and you'll think you have a different car- trust me until you experience it you just cannot understand what it does...

I have probably tested 009s, and 050s against the Mallory over 100 times in different combos in the last 3 years. I cannot recall ONE that was able to touch the Mallory below 3000 RPM, or in the top end. I can get the fuel curve to be the mirror image of the torque plot with a mallory and the dyno- that don't happen with any VW dizzy. About the closest one is a 205N .

I have 18 different VW dizzies hanging on the wall in the dyno room- out of all of them the 050 is my least favorite..
Different folks for different folks, but mine are dictated by a piece of paper with numbers on it that ain't easy to argue with.....

Heck, I'd love to be able to spend 49.95 on a great dizzy for my engines, but instead I have to spend 250ish for one that unleashes the full potential that the customer pays for- its included with their build(all of them)

AlanU · Post by **AlanU** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:01 am

I am very curious to see the differences in the 050 vs 009. I'm currently using the 050 with pertronix and I find my idle to be perfectly fine in my 2332. No difference compared to my 2110 with 009. I've set my total advance to 32 degrees on my 2332 with my 050 distributor. My throttle response off the line in my 2332 seems to be in no way retarded. The grunt off the line pulls extremely hard even if my base timing is below 10 degrees (if I was using an 009) As for spark plugs I think a nice tan color is a good indication of good operation.

I do see great benefits having a "retarded" base timing for emissions but perhaps it may be helpful for high c/r engines that have troubles turning over when being started when at operating temperatures.

Perhaps an 050 would work better than an 009 if your trying to resolve your flat spot in your 1600cc with a stock solex carb.

Dynos may produce numbers but as far as driveablility is concerned there are merits to seat of your pants testing. When I conveted my 2110 from a 009 to an 050 I did like the faster advance curve of the 050 in my heavy superbeetle.

vwfye · Post by **vwfye** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:50 am

well, i guess i don't have a clue. hehehe, everyone that hates their 050, please mail them to me!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:57 am

Thats the whole issue. Seat of the pants is what causes the mis tuning! I'll almost guarantee that the 32 degrees total advance is hurting the top end potential of the engine and causing it to run a few degrees hotter as well. Engines with decent compression and a matched cam normally don't like more than 30 degrees full advance to "Clean up"

Alot of times guys *think* that their engne is stronger with more total advance- guess why? because with any dizzy that has stock charatceristics (not adjustable) when you jack up the total timing, the initial also rises. Since most of your acceleration *seat of the pants* is felt below 3K the engine *feels* stronger. actually the added advance up top is killing your potential to make the power through the entire band do to *overadvance*

It has been two years since I dynoed my 914 engine.. I made some changes to the dizzy a few days ago getting ready for a drivers ed next weekend. The engine has an RPM potential of 8K. It loves the timing at 27 degrees. I made a goof with my timing light and could not get the engine to pull over 6500 RPM....(I noticed the EGT was really lower than normal and The top end was really nasty and fell on its face) when I reset the timing back down from 33 degrees to 27 the engine would pull straight to 8,000 and hold there. The EGT went back up 150 degrees to the normal readings.

The engine does not need that much advance up to, basically it creates a lean condition from the overadvance. it can even be seen on an A/F ratio gauge or EGT just like it can be on the dyno plot. its amazing what just 2 degrees of total timing can do to top end performance. I have seen 2 degrees make 10HP on a 180 HP engine and cool the heads off by 40 degrees- by the same token go the opposite direction and lose power and make more heat!

Most people that do not think dynos are accurate tols have never ran one, or been around one 5 days a week... I have and can attest that its the best tool in my entire shop.

Buy a Mallory and experiment with higher initial advance and different advance rates. Dne correctly you can set the initial advance higher, and lean out the idle mixture to create an engine that idles perfectly and even a 300 degree cam will idle like stock at 1050 RPM.. Then with the correct total advance will pull straight to the redline without a burp, cough or hesitation. The Mallory has proven to be the best thing for tuning I have ever seen... I gain nothing from telling you this either(its not like I sell them)

I have a busy day today, but if I get some time I'l post a customers plots that show the process that the timing can make. Its the most important aspect of engine tuning. Engine tuning is everything!

Rescue912 · Post by **Rescue912** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:14 am

I love the 050 on a 356/912 engines but haven't tried one on a T4. That distributor seems to favor a shorter rod so it would seem like a good fit. Whether it is or not is up to you.

I also spin mine on a "distributor dyno" and tweak them soze I don't get more that 29-30 degrees advance. Too much of a good thing is often just too much. Definitely flattens the top end otherwise.

vwfye · Post by **vwfye** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:59 am

i don't run 32 total advance with my 050 and it does not suffer off idle bog, top end stall, hotter heads.

dstar5000 · Post by **dstar5000** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:33 pm

vwfye wrote:-------it does not suffer off idle bog, top end stall, hotter heads.

So you HAVE tested it then?

Without comparioning them, you just can't say that...
well, you can SAY it, but....you really don't *KNOW*.

Don