Jake, would you please comment?

vwduud · Post by **vwduud** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:30 pm

Jake, will you please let us know what you do or don't do to use dual thrust cam bearings in a type 4? Do you make a tang on one of the thrust bearings? If so, how do you make it? Do you cut a pair of slots and bend a tang? If you do not wish to comment, will you please answer with no comment. Thank you - Jim Brown

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:48 am

First of all, don't try to slap a lawsuite on me if you toast your engine!
I buy two sets of cam bearings for a Type 4.

I don't worry about the tangs, but I use loctite sleeve locker on the corners of the thrust surfaces to hold things in place.

Every engine I have buiult since 97 has had double thrust bearings done in this manner and we have had zero failures due to it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:49 am

Thanks for your candid reply. I understand now why you may have been hesitant to reply initially. Please do not take offense to the following Jake, I am not judging your solution, nor your methods. I am trying to understand the "best" possible solution for us that have not built engines since 97.

Hypothetically, and due to your disclaimer in your response, there is a slight chance that this technique could be risky. Your track record of using it since 97 speaks volumes. Yet, it seems that there is a possibility that this solution could toast an engine either by not applying it correctly, or due to the fact that there is "glue" holding something in place that is subject to heat, oil, vibration and slight movement - all conditions that could loosen the adhesion.

So, I have two concerns. If I do not apply this properly the bearings could spin, toasting my engine, or the adhesive could just fail after 50,000 miles or so and toast the engine. If it works, there will be that possibility of doubt that even you seem to exhibit in your reply.

So what are the options? What will work best? What has the least risks?

1.) Use stock configuration, only 1 thrust bearing - not as durable for bearing life, but least risky in bearing spin in the case.
2.) Use two thrust bearings relying on case crush only to hold in place - bearing reliability there, but uncertatinty that bearings will stay in place.
3.) Use two thrust bearings with sleeve retainer - same as 2, but added benefit of sleeve retainer, if applied correctly (clean surface, proper amount, etc.).
4.) Add a tang to one of the thrust bearings - tang could be weak and break off, if not polished properly at cuts could damage cam bearing surface.

Jake, I know what your current solution is with the loctite. I am curious to know what you brainstormed within yourself, or with other respected mechanics when you decided upon the method you chose. What makes this difficult is the number of recommended solutions out there. You recommend the loctite, EBS racing, Berg's website, and John Connolly all feel that case crush is enough to prevent the bearings from spinning. Connolly also argued that the tangs on the stock bearing shells were not to prevent the bearings from spinning, but to locate them in their saddles, and to prevent lateral movement. Although this makes sense, I have opened up enough cases to see the number two crank bearing dowel holes elongated due to the bearing "trying" to spin. I understand this is not cam bearings. It does however provide a situation that is similar enough to make you wonder. How much rotation friction, even in a well oiled engine, is on a bearing, trying to "encourage" it to spin in the case?

vwduud · Post by **vwduud** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:51 am

Oops, forgot to sign in. I am sure you knew that was me in the above posted reply. Just wanted to clarify.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:08 am

The loctite is a safety precaution- simply...

With every recommendation I make comes a certain amout of risk that someone can fry me in a lawsuite if their engine goofs up. Some people live to do that crap and I have encountered it before.

All I can say is do it whatever way you choose and go with it. I have no one to ask questions and must use experience as my judgement.

I have offered you this judgement and you must make your own decision as to what you shall decide to do. Some people charge for recommendations, when you get them for free listen and don't question.

FYI-I'm using this same method in my 3.0 engine, it will make 260+ HP and rev to over 8,000 RPM and the parts cost 25,000 so far just to assemble it- The answer is yes, I do trust my judgement- it came from experience.

Also, I have seen engines with a single thrust bearing wipe out in 5000 miles, running single valve springs... NEVER discount anything over method. The proper end play setting on the cam bearings is more imprtant than anything else.

You must not be afrid of the engine! Do it, and if it screws up learn from it! If you don't want to take risks, pay someone else for their assembly-

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:16 am

Jake...good straight up reply. Its worth it to tell people to assemble the case halve with no bearings. Now look at it. You have a groove in one side of the case made to fit the tang in one bearing shell half...right?
Notice there is not one exactly opposite? Thats so the notch....which is out of plane to the bearing surface...butts up against the sadde face. Hence...no way that bearing shell half will ever turn.
Think about this.....when you install one bearing shell with positive lock like that....how is the other shell going to push it around? It can't! If it does...then you had so much friction...from no oil pressure....that the bearing spinning is the least of your worries. Jakes method is simply an insurance policy against vibration and destruction of the tang....and fretting of the bearing half against each other. This is not a hugely difficult deal. Ray

type3 · Post by **type3** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:17 pm

raygreenwood wrote:Jakes method is simply an insurance policy against vibration and destruction of the tang....

Ray as I understand it, with Jakes method there is no tang. Only loctite holding it. Feel free to correct me if I misread either post.

If I did understand correctly then that is a really cool solution. Thanks for the information, it's really appreciated.

Thanks to vwduud for pursueing this one with all his posts.

cheers,
type3

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:13 pm

One half of the bearing already has a tang. It only takes one half with a tang to hold both. Ray

vwduud · Post by **vwduud** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:51 pm

raygreenwood wrote:One half of the bearing already has a tang. It only takes one half with a tang to hold both. Ray

One half of the bearing does have a tang in the standard cam bearing set (one thrust bearing - no tang, and one tanged bearing shell - no thrust shoulders). What Jake is saying is that when using two thrust bearings (from two standard kits - throwing out the tanged half), you now have two bearings without tangs - nada. This has been the source of concern generating these posts.

vwduud · Post by **vwduud** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:55 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:First of all, don't try to slap a lawsuite on me if you toast your engine!
I buy two sets of cam bearings for a Type 4.

I don't worry about the tangs, but I use loctite sleeve locker on the corners of the thrust surfaces to hold things in place.

Every engine I have buiult since 97 has had double thrust bearings done in this manner and we have had zero failures due to it.

Jake, thanks for your patience with me on this. Could you elaborate on your procedure for applying the loctite? I am mainly interested in surface preparation (for the loctite to do it job the best), and where excatly and how much loctite do you use? You mention "on the corners". Is this only under the thrust shoulders, at each corner, or are you actually under the shell of the bearing with the loctite?

Thanks again.

type3 · Post by **type3** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:11 pm

raygreenwood wrote:One half of the bearing already has a tang.

Hi Ray, i think vwduud already summed it up but just to reiterate, the tanged half is the half you don't use when using a double thrust setup. I'll post some pics of my setup when I get my bottom end ready to go together.

cheers,
type3

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:02 pm

It has been too long since I assembled one but why would you toss the tanged side?

vwduud · Post by **vwduud** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:39 pm

GDRBO wrote:It has been too long since I assembled one but why would you toss the tanged side?

To get dual thrust bearings, for greater strength in this area.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:26 pm

I'll have to look at the old ones I took out of my beast a few months ago, when I get to the storage unit in Dallas tommorrow. That was the set I bought that had both halves of the bearing thrusted. I thought the tang side was on the thrusted half. Its what I get for not doing enough engine building this year. My brain cell is getting weak. Ray

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:22 pm

That was my thought as well, but it has been a couple of years since I've put one together.