Drag Racing suspension

Are you one of those confused people who can't make up their mind?
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Bugzlife
Posts: 2597
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Bugzlife »

People are very "racist" against the Rotary. +
I say don't worry about them, make your own educated decision
please read the whole web page first
link: http://www.geocities.com/zenjoe/VW.html
&
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine7.htm

the rotary "low torque" high HP, is not as hard on the trans as a potent VW motor
but if you launch at 7k rpm you might break the ring and pinion or first gear on any trans axle, be realistic.

you will need at the least the "pro street" trans that Rancho or Transform offers
with super diff, hardened keys, steel shift forks, 3.78 1st gear, etc, I would recomend a closer ratio 3rd and fouth gear welded, 1.48 and 1.12 with a 4.12 ring and pinion.
A Berg street disk clutch disk and at the least a 1700 kep pressure plate.

Image
Mark H
Posts: 594
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Mark H »

Dyne wrote:Not quite a Buick V6. Try a Ford 2.3 Turbo. I think it will be closer to 300 pounds. Well, I don't exactly have the car yet but I'm working on it. Swing axles are more common then IRS aren't they? (I'm a newb) So just for ideas, we'll go with swing. Tell me what ya think from that.
Wouldn't this be a cast iron boat anchor motor.
Mark H
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Mark H »

Dyne wrote:Dude, you should read everything before you state something. I'm not putting an "cast iron inline 4" onto it. Its a rotory engine, and it only weighs 40 more pounds then a VW engine. 130 horse to keep up with a stock VW, where did you get that from? A rotory engine does not weigh a lot and it wouldn't "destroy" the car for what it is. Research before you talk, it could help. Accept the fact that building a performance VW isn't always the easiest way to go. So what if a VW engine is made out of well crafted metals. If you want to take engine materiel into it, Japanese had and still have of the best steel in the world ever. In the 1600s during Iyesha Tokugawa's empiricy Japanese steel had less that .000006 phosfourus in it which is an even better rating then modern steel. And a lot better then anything Germany ever made. Granted, that amount of phosfourus was created by the laminated steel technique created and mastered by the Japanese in the Sen Goku period (1300 AD) but even today with their mas produced steel, it still holds one of the best phosfourus ratings in the world. You don't get steel like that in the 1960s out of Germany. I'm not saying German steel is horible or anything but its not on par with Japanese steel. All in all, Japanese steel wins in this argument no matter how hard you try to prove yourself. I know Japanese history and their steel used in their swords and just about everything else is a big part of their history because it was so perfect for the time period and even in modern day. I do Kendo so I like to study Samurai and Japan. VW engines are good for what they were designed for and thats 60 MPH down the Audubon. You can get horsepower out of them but its not the easiest or most reliable engine to use. It would have its advantages but so does the rotory engine. And by the way, don't even bother trying to bring the materials used in the engines into this. Its utterly pointless and the Japanese steel is by far more efficent then the German steel. And becides, be happy. Felix Wankel was German and he invented the rotory engine. German make, Japanese steel and inovations. Enjoy the history lesson! I've got a lot more I could so about the history and culture of Japan if you would like, just ask. And yes, I do want the car to be unique and different. And your "bobbing" around problem could be easily fixed with some suspension mods.
Great you read a book on some things in Japan. I lived there for years. Yakoska to be exact. I'm sur the spellings wrong but please don't grade me on that.
first off my example of better materials addressed your choice of a German designed but unfortunately american built Ford motor. I could care less about some percentage point of some inpurity in German steel. German steel beats American cast iron any day.

But it seems you are obviously just dreaming at this point and have changed your mind about the Ford and now you want a rotary because of the pretty picture most likely.

Fact ,rotaries are compact and small. But they are NOT light weight! add water, electric water pumps (because the stock one has probs pumping water a long way) ,extra tubing under the car to transport the water, radiators, etc , etc. and you end up with a TON of extra weight junior.
how do I know this because I've been there done that. How many cars have you built????? I've been building fast cars from the ground up for decades. You'd wet your pants if you got a ride in my 65 street Bug.


Buy the way Mazda got their rotary design from NSU and soon found out they got SCREWED! The german design sucked. The Japanese should be given full credit for inventing the rotary motor that "WORKED". The german one was lame and smoked. The people at Mazda working to the point of exhaustion and bankruptsy invented the "carbon seal" that made the amazing rotaries of today possible. The silly German rotaries were NOTHING in comparison to these machines. The german design was nothing more than an unsuccessfull oddity.

If you can't comprehend the inner workings of a simple VW motor then do your self a favor and give up the grandios idea of building a whole car complete with transplant motor and all systems. Your most likely be best off buying a store bought Honda or Camaro.
Mark H
Posts: 594
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Mark H »

"the rotary "low torque" high HP, is not as hard on the trans as a potent VW motor
but if you launch at 7k rpm you might break the ring and pinion or first gear on any trans axle, be realistic. "

Actually , bugslife, the opposite can be true. Depending of HP levels of course. Launching a motor with low power and having the wheels catch and bogging it down can destroy a trans quicker than lots of power applied right. But I'm sure you know this already.

The rotary is an amazing design but putting one in a VW presents some basic probs. Because of the rotaries low torque at low Rs a very low ring and pinion is required if you want the car to drive or launch normal. Even a 4.37 R&P seems high to a N/A rotary. My buddy street raced a Ghia with a built rotary and he ended up using a Bus trans with a rare 700 series ! R&P.
It broke. He later went with an upside down Porsche trans and "fixed" the low torque prob by turbo charging the Rotary motor. In my opinion a turbo is the only way to go with a rotary, It brings the rpms down and flattens the torque curve and really makes them perform well.

PS . I like your rotary movie :-)
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

I've done engines before. Lots of times, just don't really want to go with a VW in this project. Originality. Tackling a project I've never done before with an engine I havn't worked directly with but I know several people that have. And I havn't read just one book on Japan. This project is just supposed to be something new and challenging. And I've seen a hell of a lot nicer looking engines then that rotory in the bug. And no, your beetle would not scare me one bit. I've done cars before and I've ridden in quite a few beasts. None of them mine, but all had power. This is not going to be for good drag times. I don't plan on doing 7,000 RPM power starts. This is going to be a streetable toy. I don't need or want something freakishly fast. I like the prospect of a built VW. Authentisity would be nice, if I can get it for less then $2000. I'm looking for only about 150 horse. Give me an estimate and be more open minded to other peoples fun projects and ideas. I'm just doing research to find possible transplants just for the fun. But anyway.

Hey, Bugzlife. Just a guess from what you've been saying, but you've done this, right? So what have you done to your trans? And how well would a stock one hold up? Thanks for the help.
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

I've never worked with VW transaxles before, so I don't knwo what their capable of handling. I also don't know how well 150 horse is going to get my Ghia going. Whats a good streetable about of HP for a car this small and light? Remember, streetable. Fast, but daily driver. Not fast like, spin the wheels whenever I need to get up and go. I think you know what I mean. Give me an estimate if you can. And tell me if I can get it crate and for how much.
vdubyah73
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 12:01 am

Post by vdubyah73 »

Dyne,some of these guys are what you might call gurus when it comes to scary fast VW's! read your VW mag. and you'll begin to figure out whos blowing smoke and whos trying to help you! You will even figure out who some of the people on this post are. And believe me this is a great resource and most of them are trying to help. Bill
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

I'm aware of that. I've been looking for crate engines and so far I havn't found an affordable one with the horsepower I want. If anyone here can help me with that, do so. I'm also still looking at a rotary engine, dont get me wrong. If you can find me a reliable, turn key crate engine running about 130 horse that doesn't require transmission modifications and can run with a stock swingaxle set up without eating it alive for about $2000-$2500. If I can get that, I won't use a rotary. This is also for a daily driver so emfisis on reliable.
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TKisner
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Post by TKisner »

http://thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=78592 Theres your 130 hp all you need to do is bolt on carbs, cooling tin, dizzy, and exhaust.
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

Thats a nice deal. I'll keep that in mind if I ever need it in the future. But so far, I'm still looking into a rotary. From what I've heard (for about 30 different forums) that its a fun project, simple and easy. And the rotary problems that all of you have probably heared about are mearly results of bad maintinence. Engine leaks within a year of new seals; you put them in wrong, engine loosing compression; you aren't changing your oil oftenly enough and its keeping the apex seals in the closed posistion. Simple, easy to work on engines, and I really won't to know how to buld them. Interesting little things. Incredible room for new designs. Well, sorry traditional aircooled engine builders. I want something original, plus I want an excuse to work on rotary engines.
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Deathbug74
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:01 am

Post by Deathbug74 »

Dyne wrote: If you can find me a reliable, turn key crate engine running about 130 horse that doesn't require transmission modifications and can run with a stock swingaxle set up without eating it alive...
something to keep in mind: what the transmission will stand up to depends on how hard you want to beat on it. if you baby it, you could probably make a stock transaxle live with a pretty strong engine. on the flip side, if you beat up on it, it doesn't take much power to break something. even a modest engine will require some trans work to be reliable if you want to beat on it.
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

I've worked with pretty much only American stuff up to know. So when I get online and look for stock transaxles as see prices like $500 I think, wow thats cheap. American transmissions you can sell for an arm and a leg. Well, I won't exactly be gentle or hard. But I'll get my fun out of it. And if I ever do kill a trans, then I'll get a rancho pro street. That should handle it a lot better I think.
Dyne
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:43 pm

Post by Dyne »

Anyone know of a website for rotary engines? Something with modifications and all that? I've been having trouble finding a performance rotary engine website.
Guest

Post by Guest »

one other issue nobody has brought up about rotary motors is that they are very loud and their exhaust systems run very very hot which also might pose some packaging issues
Guest

Post by Guest »

also people this is the conversion forum if you don't like the idea of other engines in vws don't come here we have heard all the arguments

why do we put alternate engines in our vws ...... BECAUSE WE CAN

2088bob street legal 2088cc rabbit motored sandrail 12.21@112mph
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