DTM and power capabilities

PEPPE · Post by **PEPPE** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:57 am

i have seen on the Jake's site the study about the cooling systems. i was asking myself (i did not read on the site) how much load was applied to the engines, and if Jake tested the maximum load capacity (power) with reasonable head temp.
i was asking myself the same with the type 4.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:35 pm

Testing was done at :

3500RPM with a 10 lb/ft load (simulating 70MPH in a beetle)

4800 RPM with a 13 lb load (simulating around 90MPH in a beetle)

And also at wide open throttle at max load at 5,000 RPM for an endurance run to see how hot the engine would get and also the rate it would reach that temperature..

The same parameters were used for Type I and Type IV tests..

PEPPE · Post by **PEPPE** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:09 pm

and this translates to how much power? 20 hp?
can these cool a 120mph beetle or a very fast bus?
at wide open throttle the engine is not fully cooled as always? it has few minutes of thermical inertia and then head temperature goes to hell?
however i think that it's a real improvement over stock. maybe perfection is not possible with the design of the engine.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:24 pm

The DTM is proven to be the best cooling system available- period.

We use it to power full on race cars making 100HP per liter as well as street engines.

The cooling CAPABILITY of the engine plays a key role in how effective the cooling system will be..

Perfection is possible and we already have it... Hundreds of users can attetst to that.

PEPPE · Post by **PEPPE** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:43 pm

yes, i think so, some bad engineered engines will never cool!
however i define perfection as a 190hp T4 engine or 150hp T1 engine that can have a stabilized head temperature with FULL load on the dyno.

a friend (engineering in rebuilding of military generators with vw engines) told me that a T1 engine in standard enviroment and in stock form can cool up to 75 hp, so has a cooling capability up to 50% over stock.
this is the key of success i think.

it's difficult to have an exact comparison, some engines need more cooling (bad) and some need less cooling to have the same power. (good combination of parts)

i was asking myself if it is possible with some configuration to have power and full reliability. and for full reliability i mean that an engine is capable of cool itself at full power with no limits of time.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:51 pm

Even porsche knew 30+ years ago that acast iron cylinder could only take 18 sustained HP load without thermally overloading... When this occurs and heat soak sets in no cooling system is effective.

If you a higher than 18-20HP sustained load, the only way its gonna stay together is with a set of Nickies....

read this page for a comparison of Nickies and cast iron and an explanation of heat soak

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_2332.htm

EASY RIDER · Post by **EASY RIDER** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:23 am

If 10Hp load is 70mph and 13Hp load is 90mph then HOW do you get to 18-20Hp load? How much weight would you have to put into a beetle to attain a HP load that great?

Bert

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:31 am

as speed increases load increases due to aerodynamics...

Its hard to speculate on loads and how much more it would need to duplicate the 18-20HP numbers.

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:01 pm

Hoe to create a 20HP+ sustained load?
Push a Vanagon.

IIRC the 18hp limit on cast iron was per cylinder...?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:35 pm

Yes, the 18HP was per cylinder....
Read the article on my site on heat soak under Nickie and Squishie testing..

You can get a 20HP load with a bus, or with a beetle with very tall gearing with the E brake on...

EASY RIDER · Post by **EASY RIDER** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:00 am

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:You can get a 20HP load ..... with a beetle with very tall gearing with the E brake on...

WOW, there is an idea! Well let's go see what these NICKIES are made of!

J/K

Bert

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:26 am

You'll smoke your brakes first.....

That engine won't heat soak- You and I already tried it on the dyno!

PEPPE · Post by **PEPPE** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:13 am

nickies was the solution for 50cc motorcycles to have reliability.... i remember when i was a kid and play with those engines...

the problem is the price. i want to ask to italian manufacturer of tuning cylinders for motorcycles. prices are not really excessive here.
if there will be interesting news i will post to the forum.

jake, do you think that are usable pistons from the cast iron kits building only the new nicasil cylinder?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:18 am

Can you make that question more clear?? Do you want to run an existing piston?

Nickies are damn expensive because they are made from Billet extrusion and not casting. They are 100% CNC machined and work!

If you pick one up, or see it on the dyno with a full load the price is not extreme any longer!

PEPPE · Post by **PEPPE** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:41 am

i ask if i can use with a new nickie a production piston like 94mm mahle, or if nickies require a different technology piston.

i want to try if these can be obtained at a different price. try do not cost nothing. i have friends with motorbikes that have built custom nickies from these cylinders shop.

cost is not excessive for the quality inherent. the problem according to me, is the total cost of the engine.