3 Liter update.. Running really good as a daily driver

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:43 pm

The 3 liter has been alive for 3 weeks now and I figured its time for a detailed update on the project and the future of more engines like it.

In General
With all the rush of getting things together for Dyno Day the time spent on the dyno here was somewhat limited and plagued by carb issues. Once I got the carb issues taken care of the Big Boy cranked out 224HP and 230 lb/ft of torque! Max HP was at 5K RPM and Max torque at 4K RPM. This was with a full exhaust system that was muffled by a 3" Magnaflow!

We bolted the engine in the car, fired it up and drove it 2.5 hours to Allspeed in Peachtree City where I clicked off 187HP and 186 torque at the rear wheels(with belt) and a max of 195HP and 196 torque without the belt also at the wheels.

I then drove it about another hour at 70-75MPH down to Lagrange GA for the track day on Sunday. I was absolutely amazed thath the heads ran so cool. The DTM has really proven it's self now since it kept head temps down to 275-300 on both sides of the engine at cruise. I have a SUPER tall geared tranny and 75MPH is literally 3,000 RPM. Even with that much load the heads ran incredibly cool. To date I have seen a max head temp of 360 degrees climbing up hill at WOT for 3 miles..... This is atleast 50 degrees cooler than an average STOCK 2.0 engine with stock cooling making less than 100HP !!!! Oil temps are the same... the max I have seen with the smallest Mesa cooler is a whopping 220 degrees and thats incredible with a near 106mm piston. I know this is partly due to the DLC coatings and thermal barrier coatings reducing friction and heat transfer but its also a testament to the DTM and the Nickies cylinders.

At the strip my best time idling off the line and really taking care of the tranny was 8.07 lighting the tires up in every gear. I am not a very good drag racer and I am not used to the power or shift points of the engine so I was more than pleased when I went through the lights 5-6 car lengths ahead of all the TIs I challenged....

After the drag day I drove it about an hour up the road till we hit traffic and the 3K pound clutch got old... I hooked it behingd Beth's Trail Blazer and took it back to her house.. Since it's been alive I have logged about 600 miles on it and it's absolutely incredible. I cannot believe how well it cools and how little the car needs to be "Driven"... Unlike a huge TI engine it doesn't "Come on" in the powerband... Its ALWAYS ON- Like a MASSIVE stock 1600! I am averaging 25MPG with the carbs and thats because it idles down the road with NO throttle.

What needs improvement:
(1) I need to machine some new rocker shafts that will allow the use of a ratio rocker. Right now we have a very mild cam instyalled and were only able to net .335 cam lift due to clearance issues with the cam/rods. This equals out to around.440 lift at the valve and the heads REALLY need to lift .500 to get the maximum from them. That extra lift will make some big power differences. Due to time I was forced to run the stock rocker ratio for dyno and drag day.

(2) EFI... It really needs the 52mm Jenveys and Autronic installed. I feel that the carbs are super small for this engine and due to vacuum readings we took the powerband is being shortened by a minimum of 1500RPM due to them running out of flow on the beast. The FI will be installed in a month or less in the car.

(3) The exhaust needs some work. We are using a 2" Berg (Old Phoenix) header with Magnaflow (3") and the collector is nasty. I have Tiger working on a bad ass 4 into 1 system with his collector just for this engine and its powerband. I feel that Tiger's set up is good for atleast 5 ponies and probably 10/lb ft of torque.

(4) I need to seal the engine bay up like stock by making some templates for the waterjet cut tins. I think I could net even cooler head temps and oil temps with the exhaust heat out of the engine bay

(5) I do believe that version 2 will see a camshaft swap and I'll add atleast 10 degrees of total duration to the combo. I have been able to "ping" the engine on two occasions under load with adequate AFR and very little timing. This is a sign that I do not have enough duration (so is the 500 RPM smooth as silk idle)

(6) I am working with Ricky Graffeo to build me a bulletproof tranny that will take tremendous abuse equipped with a quaiffe and correct gearing for the torque and HP of the engine. I have still NOT used full throttle because I KNOW the trans will grenade.

What I am very pleased with
(1) The powerband... The engine would live forever because it doesn't need RPM at all... by 5K you are over 210HP so a short shift at even 3500 RPM is astonishing

(2) The cool temps.... What can I say- Its unbelievable considering that these heads only have FOUR cooling fins! The Nickies and DTM are REALLY doing their job!

(3) The Nickies... These are the biggest that Charles and I have ever worked with... No Blowby.. No ring seating issues and no head leaks!

(4) The heads.. Amazing. Mondo more potential but the first try with this engine having no base lines at all resulted in EVERY dyno pull being over 200HP!

(5) The power... Its like a Big Block GTO with a 4 speed... it even sounds like on... It just moans and hauls ass.. Cruising at 3K RPM if you jump on the throttle you are running 90MPH in 2 seconds.

What plans are in the future
A New combo for this street engine and hopefully it will be all fancied up and ready for install in my "other' car (cal look terror) in another year or so. I will be keeping close tabs on this one just in case I want to build one more of these to sell to the public for a heavy price (If I do it there will be ONLY one more)

I have found an individual that is willing to run an engine similar to this (with our heads) in his very competitive Autocross car in 2006. That engine will likely feature a tad less stroke and 14:1 CR and make 230 at the rear wheels at minimum....

I also have found a GT 914 driver that wants an engine similar to this for Road Racing. It will undoubtedly feature way less stroke and the same size bore for superior high RPM capability.

What I really need is a skilled PRA Drag Racer that has an open mind to go stomp the Super Street crowd with this set up, my roller lifters and a few more tricks. The deal would be a heavy sponsorship to the right driver that can get a car in the finals time and time again. This will increase the TIV in drag race arenas...

We have 4 Midget teams interested in switching to TIV power with their 16:1 Alcohol fed rockets and that will really put the engine and heads to the test. I am working on an engine program with them as we speak!

Now... What does this all mean to the normal TIV enthusiast?? More TIV exposure while we refine the most critical area of the TIV engine. I want to run these heads on full race engines, try and break them, create street and race combos around them and then offer them to the public.

The price of admission to this level of performance isn't cheap for street guys. We project a cost of 3500.00 for a pair of heads with our trick 7mm stemmed valves, conical springs with 5 gram Titanium retainers with manifolds and valve covers(carbon fiber) If you are remotely interested in a set of these heads please email me at [email protected] and we'll start some dialogue to see if they are right for you.

Remember a street engine with these heads is totally drivable daily and has already produced almost 200HP at the rear wheels in baseline form. Some people may not call that much but it also produced the same in torque and thats unheard of with a TI thats not Turbocharged or running 13:1 CR as a hand grenade.As for longevity I have no idea yet but as cool as it runs and as easy as it drives I think it could equal many of my smaller engines at well over 50K before it needs scheduled maintenance.

All in all I am pleased, but this is just the beginning... Gimme a year of trial and error and we'll be at the goal of 280 at the flywheel

MNAirHead · Post by **MNAirHead** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:42 am

Would a 3 litre have enough displacement to do a colonoscopy for our newest friend on this board????

(no let's not fully drudge up the stupidity again).

Thanks for the update.

Post by **sparkmaster1** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:31 am

Great recap. Damn fine work Jake. Tim

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:33 pm

I'm glad you have your own project. You go through the same things as many of us, just on a different level. LOL

It makes maximum torque so close to where it makes the most HP. Its obvious that hit has gobs more power it you can get it to breath more and get another 1500 RPM out of it.

keep us posted,
Ron

Class 11 streeter · Post by **Class 11 streeter** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:16 pm

Like everyone has already said, GREAT WORK and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us Jake.

pfer10 · Post by **pfer10** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:39 pm

Jake, are the midget teams local to you? Can you tell us where they run and in what series? It has been a while since a VW can compete on the high horsepower tracks. They do good in the indoor races but that is about it.

PF

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:01 am

That is sweet! and that engine is only 182 cubic inches!

Thanks Jake!

Ephry

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:28 am

Jake,
What exactly is so special about your heads that they command such a high price tag? Just curious. Are the exhaust prots moved to the type 1 location?
Thanks

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:50 am

Yes, they are relocated to the TI position.. They are also CNC machined from two chunks of billet aluminum and equipped with the latest and most advanced valvetrain available...

We have almost two years in this project and its going to require atleast another year to even being close to perfected.

That cost $ and alot of it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:29 pm

So Jake are these the heads that are on your 3 liter currently? What size valves are available with these heads.
Thanks

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:34 pm

These have 52x43 valves and are the heads designed for engines larger than 2700cc. I have two more versions that will be offered with smaller valve sizes for smaller engines, BUT they are not recommended for an engine with les than 2270cc of displacement unless you want a super high revver!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:07 pm

What about Pauter heads? You could get them to fit a type 4 and they are quite a bit cheaper and they obviously make the power.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:33 pm

And they don't cool and they have MANY more issues that make them NON streetable.... Including splash oiling rockers, thick, fat, short cooling fins. They even require a special exhaust system with different exhaust flanges.... Mine take a regular old non modified TI exhaust system that bolts right on.

They are designed for a 100% full race engine and they work well in that environment. They also have not been improved in years and they use very heavy Chevy valvetrain that requires super duty springs to control.
Modern materials, and some new thoughts can and will make more power....

AND They are MORE money than my heads... 3900 bones WITHOUT manifolds, rockers or valve covers.. I have a pair here as we speak.

I would not have made my own heads if the Pauters would do the job...

My heads utilize stock rockers (self oilers) and so far have been absolutely streetable on a 10:1 engine. The price may drop if we can get the volume of sales up a bit through the racing applications that we plan for them.... Some Midget racers have SIX engines....