FUEL TANK FOR SDS EFI RAT 2270

marekv8 · Post by **marekv8** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm

This question should probably be in the "Fuel Injection" forum, but because it is specific to a RAT T4, I'll ask it here if you don't mind. Jake has been kind enough to allow me to make the change to a SDS system on a 2270 "Performer" currently under construction at his shop. The application is a 1964 Beetle with an internal filler neck on the fuel tank.

Has anyone run across a race cell suitable for an early Beetle that will fit the stock location with only minor fabrication-- plus have plumbing which suits the needs of the car and the new engine? Rather than create a "frankentank" by splicing an EFI lower section with my early upper section, I'd prefer to go with something generally safer and aesthetically racier.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Regards, Dave

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:38 pm

Good question Dave.....

I guess what you are really looking for is more of a "Fuel Cell" that fits really well in the confines of the Beetle body and doesn't take an act of god to install... Right???
LOL

BTW- All the parts came in today......

Engine is being finished up next week, dynoed soon therafter..

marekv8 · Post by **marekv8** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:01 am

Jake, that's exactly what I'm looking for. It sounds simple enough, yet there doesn't seem to be a ready-to-roll answer out there. I'm certainly willing to have something custom made if I could find a good resource. With your global switch from carbs to EFI on future RAT engines, a solution here might help someone else down the road.

Thanks for the engine update, it sounds like everything is heading in the right direction.

Dave

farmer · Post by **farmer** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:44 am

there are several ways to do it. And you do no need to cut the tank open on the middle.
1. Solution good up to about 150 - 160 hp. Take the factory screw and filter out. Install a "T" section instead so that the fuel can "run in circle and be supplied" CB has a T-section that screws right on.
2. Solution is better, especially for hi-power and turbo cars. Use the existing outlet without all the restrictional filters and tubing. Drill the nut so that it will accept a min. 5,5 mm I.D. copper or better hydraulic tube. Install with a hydralulic "cut ring". Then drill an 8 mm hole in the bottom part of the tank, at least 7" away from the outlet. (To awoid turbulence as much as possible) Weld an 8 mm. I.D. hydraulic pipe in over the hole. And bingo, you are ready for Fuel injection.

P.S. Of COURSE the normal proceedures and percausions must be carried out before you start welding on the tank.

Of course a fuel cell woul be more safe, in case of the unspoken, but I have never seen other than square or rectangular universal ones.
T

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:54 am

I had told him about the "T" option and etc... I really think he wants some sort of fuel cell that would also double as a better way to accomodate the EFI.

samcat · Post by **samcat** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:56 am

www.demon-tweeks.co.uk sell these.
One of the models fits the spare wheel well on 1303 (super) beetles.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... E=ATLDC108

VERY expensive, but I have been told there are cheaper ones!

Cya,
Sam C

Mark the canuck · Post by **Mark the canuck** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:42 am

You can just get away with the stock tank with a surge tank.
You have to run two pumps, fab the tank, etc

Go to sdsefi.com and look under the tech pages.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:20 pm

Do NOT...use a "T" section. Use a "Y" section. Same concept...totally different effect. The Tee causes lots of turbulence on re-entering fuel. The T works...yes ...absoluetely....but the "Y"works much better. The factory knew this too...as the "Y"'s are on cars ranging from type 3 up through the golfs.

People are fretting much too much about the fuel tange surge ring issue. Its just not that complex of a piece. It does not have to be more than 1/2 liter max...in volume. In fact its not that hard to make one that can be fished in through the sending unit hole...and bolted through a hole in the bottom with a single external bulkhead seal. That way any future leakage can simply be fixed by changing a single seal on the outside. Just contact me if you want details. I think it would be an easy addition to make to any tank...with no cutting, no welding. I also do not see why...it could not be incorporated as a kit....with a bracket that simply bolts to the bottom of the sending unit chassis. Use teflon line to the bulkhead fitting barb. It will last forever.

By the way...1/2 liter is about 30 seconds supply for most any FI system.
The stock fuel pipe stub is good for 150-180 hp...yes...in single pump usage. But...With a feeder pump and a primary pump...(something that should be done on ALL fuel injection systems....period!).....its good up to 300 or more.

You woud be hard pressed to find any European FI systems taht only use one pump. Thats for good reason. All systems....have stability issues with single pumps. And if you have no stability issues...just one single damnbig pump...then you need ...needlessly huge lines....and have a really expensive hard to replace pump. The feeders rarel;y ever wear out. They also make the primaries last twice as long and make cavitation...almost non-existant. Ray

marekv8 · Post by **marekv8** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:47 pm

Gentlemen,
Thanks a million for your helpful replies-- there are many interesting solutions here. So far, I'm leaning toward the "fabricated surge tank with additional pump" method suggested by Mark-- although finding someone to build one of these beauties for a Beetle application may take some time. It certainly doesn't seem the easiest or least expensive route, but has the hallmarks of a bolt-on "kit" which I prefer.

Thanks again for your asistance, Dave

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:02 am

I think Fuel Safe makes a fuel cell for class 11 Score racers. By the rules it must fit the stock tank location. Sorry, but I don't have a number or website at this time.

marekv8 · Post by **marekv8** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:26 am

Thanks, that nailed it perfectly. Their site is www.fuelsafe.com and they not only can custom fabricate a proper cell for the stock location, but they offer stock and custom surge tanks as well. I'll report back later with results.
Dave

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:40 am

SWEET!

I'll look into those and may stock them in the store because I'm sure others will be wanting these that are going to EFI..

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:38 pm

Be careful what you are looking at. In the aftermarket....a surge tank and the stock type surge ring are two different animals. Most of the aftermarket surge tanks are poorly designed and sized. Though they do prevent cavitation....they cause unwanted fuel pressure fluctuations....which on a high performance engine is a grfeat way to blow a hole in a piston.

One system I am leaning toward, is the floating multiple point fuel pickup system that I have seen aftermarket for BMW 5 series. It uses either two or three fuel entry tubes inside the tank...all going to a small central acuumulatoron the end of the suction line. Each pick up point has a snorkel style float valve. If it ever reaches dry air...it snaps shut...and fuel is pulled from one of the other two points. As fuel sloshes in the tank to one side on cornering, the weighted pick-up on that side sloshes with it along the bottom of the tank. It stays on the bottom and stays in the fuel. If the one on the other side reaches dry air..its valve shuts. Its seamless...so the report I read claims. It has good ratings. There are vent gills above the central pick-up point just in case any one of the two peripherals picks up any air before it snaps shut. The whole mess can be installedin a BMW tank...through the sending unit/fuel pump hole. It plugs and clamps onto the existing tube.
Soemthing like that would be pretty simple to make. Or just buy that and modify the tube lenghts to our tastes. Ray

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:23 pm

samcat wrote:www.demon-tweeks.co.uk sell these.
One of the models fits the spare wheel well on 1303 (super) beetles.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... E=ATLDC108

VERY expensive, but I have been told there are cheaper ones!

You weren't joking:

£1,245.00-£1,342.50 ($2200 - $2400)

marekv8 · Post by **marekv8** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:39 pm

UPDATE

I contacted the folks at Fuel Safe and they had nothing in stock for a VW Beetle application. I have purchased a new aftermarket 16 gallon extra-capacity tank (to compensate for the volume loss due to the bladder) and shipped it directly to Fuel Safe for them to replicate as a racing fuel cell with internal baffling.

Jake or Mark, any idea where the surge tank should be fitted for my application? Will I have any real estate left in the engine compartment once that T4 gets stuffed in? Hopefully I won't have to go the custom route on this one, too-- but I wouldn't be surprised.

Thanks, Dave