ULTIMATE HANDLING IN A BUG

chrisbro77 · Post by **chrisbro77** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:51 pm

hi,

how would you go about getting ultimate handling in a bug....

got ball joint front end IRS rear and sway away anti roll bar front and rear so far....

some still use torsion leaves and bars some coilovers which is best for handling ?

cheers

chrisbro77

helowrench · Post by **helowrench** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:55 pm

http://aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/ ... ndling.htm

start there.
use the seach button
research

What is your budget?

Rob

chrisbro77 · Post by **chrisbro77** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:30 pm

well what i wouldlike to do over timeis to go the WHITELINE SWAYBAR route but the thing that confuses me the most is weather to do away with the torsion leaves and bars and go with complete coilover suspension?

like in the aircooled.net article it uses torsion leaves etc but if that gave good handling why have modern cars gone for coilovers...

chrisbro77

Greg Ward · Post by **Greg Ward** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:03 pm

I suppose the answer is that is how the manufacturers designed them, the next evolution from my Beetle was the Super, and it had coilovers as well.
So does my open wheeler F2 car and most other racecars.

Having driven a well set up Super designed for racing in the same class that my car in the article was racing, I'd compare it as very similar, but it was a better handling car.
It was also very expensive by the time you had Bilsteins, cut struts, better springs etc.

But the real reason I never went the Super route, was because of it's weight. it was a good 175lbs more, that's like carrying another person with you everywhere you go.

The torsion setup has served me well both road driving and racing for many years and for the last 15yrs a torsion beamed balljointed front/ IRS rear Beetle regardless of owner has won it's class in Hillclimb racing over here in Oz, so I think you'd be as equally impressed with your own car's handling, just working on what you already have...

Greg

chrisbro77 · Post by **chrisbro77** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:54 am

GREG, with a torsion setup up like your own, whats it like to drive on the road, whats the ride quality like?

do u know anyone thats has gone completely coilovers on what used to be a torsion car ? would that ineffect be like a super ?

chrisbro77

bhowden · Post by **bhowden** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:21 pm

In this case, I think the coil spring vs torsion bar is a bit of a red herring. The difference between super beetle and torsion bar beetle is due to the different suspension geometry. The double trailing arm settup on a standard beetle is not very tolerant of body roll and is not particularly stiff under high cornering load. A typical all out road race car is set up very stiffly with fairly low suspension travel which is not necesarily optimal for a street driven car. You should optimize your suspension setup for the road conditions you want to be going fast on. A well setup autocross car is not going to be particularly fast on a bumpy street with some high speed freeway on ramps thrown in for good measure. Putting coil springs on a torsion bar front end is going to raise your unsprung weight (bad) and do little else to improve ashphalt based driving. They are often used on off road cars where you want miles of suspension travel and are using longer than stock trailing arms.

Conventional wisdom and a lot of examples would suggest good gas shocks, front and rear anti sway bars, and wider rims with sticky tires. From this point, it is all tuning to get something that matches your driving style and road conditions. More power and better brakes start becoming the limiting factor. If you are really serious I suppose you can start tying it all together with roll cages to stiffen the body so your suspension settings have a stable platform to work from. This will also help survival when you start exploring the limits of your handling / driving ability.

Brian

Greg Ward · Post by **Greg Ward** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:20 pm

What's it like to drive on the road?

That's a bit of a hard one simply because it's been set up this way for 12yrs now so I guess I'm used to it.
Can you feel every bump? Yep,
Do you want to drive through a pothole at any speed? Nup,
Is it comfortable though? Yes, if I can drive for 8hrs at a time highway,mountain and freeway just stopping for fuel and then getting back in and continuing, then I guess it is.
Probably a good comment was, last October I drove it from where I live in Sydney, to Adelaide to race it on a weekend, then back home from there, that's close enough to a 2500 mile round trip.
I did have someone to share the driving, he's a friend in his late 50's and his comment after a few hours at the wheel was "I didn't think this would be nearly as comfortable to drive."
He's always owned Beetles, so didn't expect this from something sprung pretty stiffly.
I'd have to say the seats and support have something to do with that too.

No-one I know of has adapted a torsion front to coilovers.

Mabbo · Post by **Mabbo** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:14 pm

hey greg, your car sounds cool..
u got any pics? im restoring my 68 ball joint/swing axel bug at the moment and hoping to use it on the street and at the track so want it 2 handle well... not sure what shocks to go for... i have a 1955cc for it which im fitting with fuel injection and turbo, and hopefully goin early 944 breaks all around..
not sure on..
wheel size choice, was thinking 15x6 fuchs
shocks, was gonna go for spax adjustable all over
seats, no back seat and prob too retroish buckets
also, i was gonna lower the front using a stock beam with adjusters and narrowed a couple ov inches and dropped spindles, and the rear maybe one spline or just less using adjustable spring plates so i can dial it in easier than strippin it and messin with inner and outer splines...

any comments/advice/opinions anyone?

cheers, mabbo

ps, sorry chrisbro77 for crashin ya thread...

Greg Ward · Post by **Greg Ward** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:36 pm

Hi Mabbo,

Yeah I've got heaps of pics, mostly from races, but I've no idea how to post them, they have been converted so they don't take up too much space though.

I could probably email them to you, or zip them up into one file.

Greg

Cohibra45 · Post by **Cohibra45** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:20 pm

Greg,

Do you have a website with your pictures on it? Use it as a link here and we could all see your car and drool. I was trying to turn my Ghia convertible into a Porsche (older version of course), but now, I think I will probably go the route of a replicar instead.

Thanks,

Kelly (Cohibra)

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:04 pm

Greg Ward wrote:Yeah I've got heaps of pics, mostly from races, but I've no idea how to post them

basically, the pictures need to be up on the web hosted by some other site. this billboard only allows you to link to them. so, they're visible here when you load a page, but they were fetched from the other host server.

if you don't have you picts on the web anywhere, you can send them to me and i can host/post them.

your friendly admin,
the other greg. : )

Mabbo · Post by **Mabbo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:55 am

Greg Ward wrote:Hi Mabbo,

Yeah I've got heaps of pics, mostly from races, but I've no idea how to post them, they have been converted so they don't take up too much space though.

I could probably email them to you, or zip them up into one file.

Greg

that would be good greg

my email is [email protected]
look forward to seing the beast... this is my 68 if any1 is interested..
before:

so far:

thanks
mabbo

Greg Ward · Post by **Greg Ward** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:18 pm

Sorry, I've been on holidays and staying away from computers!

I'll send the pics to Greg