Ceramic lifter query.

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:41 pm

Can we still get ceramic lifters from schlbeck or is he not producing these anymore. Where the lifters jake had in his store different in design from the ones on schlbecks website.

seahag · Post by **seahag** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:31 am

I believe that ALL composite lifters,either type 1 or type4 are made by Schubeck. After the initial shock of purchase price leaves you, you'll be able to realize the quality of these gems. After that, purchase price is easily justified. Seahag

dstar5000 · Post by **dstar5000** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:33 am

Jake stated in an earlier post, that Shuebeck had some problems with
his last batch and did not know when he would be able to produce
another set or know when they would be available.

Don

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:05 pm

I am wondering what could have gone wrong with the lifters.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Fri May 26, 2006 1:30 am

Nothing is wrong with the lifters- The Mfr of the material cut off the supply because of **someone**....

Don't expect to see them for months, probably never again.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:34 pm

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:Nothing is wrong with the lifters- The Mfr of the material cut off the supply because of **someone**....

Don't expect to see them for months, probably never again.

This is a topic that is near and dear to my little heart, as I am in the final stage of planning collecting bits for the "new" Pilemotor, final one of which will be cam selection based on the otherwise final combo, which I hope Jake will assist in.

So... Don't expect to see them ... from Schubeck...?
Cendyne isn't the only one who makes the stuff...
http://www.morganadvancedceramics.com/materials/sn.htm
(unless of course Schubeck has pissed them off too...)

The basic material tech isn't exactly rocket science, perhaps we'll see them coming out of China soon, there certainly is a market for it.

In the meantime--- Anyone tried CVD Silicon Nitride over say... Polished tool steel? POCOs SuperSiC ( fully densified?) Another ceramic (Boron Carbide w/CVD Silicon Nitride overcoat?---not sure if B4C is shock resistant enough tho...)

I still want a set of SiN coated/tipped stock style valve adjusters, at least. (perhaps made from HolloChrome 10mm allen screws...radiused and coated
Might have to make them myself. CVC SiN can be made far denser than the pressed stuff using a dual freqency reactor...

This tech is a staple of the semiconductor industry--- there's a LOT of "old" equipment out there obsolete for the semi industry that could coat lifters 24/7/365 for a dime each, if that works.

I'd love to have a set of those ceramic rollers, assuming they would last in a street app, and I didn't require a $700 cam.
(I just want light and bulletproof very high mile setup, I have no need for .750 lift and square valve events)

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:06 pm

For years I have been looking for an alternative source for Composite lifters because Schubeck is a HORRIBLE VENDOR to work with as a dealer.

I have tried ceramic tipped stock lifters with good results, but they are just as expensive as the solid composites and weigh 50 grams more. We have also tried some bodies made of a more conventional ceramic that also ended up being more expensive than they were worth, two of them turned into mud in 15 minutes of run time!

I have done a lot of behind the scenes networking with composites and ceramics specialists and have had numerous disappointments with their prototypes. Some of them exploded in 5 minutes of run time in the Spin device, others worked well but would cost twice as much as the Schubecks in the volume we could use/sell.

The material really is Rocket Science from what I understand. There are two sources for the material in the US and one in Europe. The only source that is in the US that will deal with the Auto industry is Ceredyne, the company that Schubeck uses and has a non competetive contract with, so they are a lost cause. The other US based company requires an order of 50K or more before thay will make anything, not even a prototype!

If the material was available at any sane price I would just buy the equipment to mke the lifters in house and then send them out to be sintered, but its not that easy..

We are now using our conventional lifters in all our engines after they are ran 8 hours through the spin device and broken in/ inspected. I have even given up my personal stash of ceramics to finish the Mighty Spyder project....

If these lifters come back from Schubeck I will be very suprised and that really sucks because they were such a great product...

Just goies to show, buy things when they are available or you might not get the chance later on! Ya snooze ya lose!

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:21 pm

I edited my rant just as you it "submit" apparently, so I'll repeat a couple of lines---
...
Might have to make them myself. CVC SiN can be made far denser than the pressed stuff using a dual freqency reactor...

This tech is a staple of the semiconductor industry--- there's a LOT of "old" equipment out there obsolete for the semi industry that could coat lifters 24/7/365 for a dime each, if that works.

For example:

Texas Instrumenst A24D.. has a ~3 ft dia table, a drum around it/air operated lid...
Feeds process gasses under the table, and sucks thru a hole in the top center of the table, the electrode is about the same size, and sits above the table.
(very uniform gas distribution for its day)

it virtually a textbook example of a CVD reactor, and was made in the late `70s-early 80s (Back when TI made equipment) Google returns nothing-- It's too old.
These are as close to bullet proof as semi equipment gets...

One could likely plasma etch and coat 1000 lifters a DAY on one with SiN, for pennies per lifter in materials/etc. The major cost would be making a new table with holes to stick lifters in. (Optional)

Most of these went to the scrap heap,

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:46 pm

I'm mulling over a smaller, tabletop setup that would do ~2 sets of lifters at a time as we speak, and require no nasties, just a decent grade of Argon.

Downside it would require a SiN sputter target (probably from Cendyne), but it (edit---the target) wouldn't have to cost much more than a set of lifters, and will coat many, many thousands.

There are many, many ways to skin this cat, now that I know that thin film SiN works.
This is my house, so to speak.

Coating the WHOLE thing is possible with CVD. PVD is pretty directional.
The dual frequency densification works for either, you should be able to grow VERY dense single crystal SiN films easily (on whatever).

I'm thinking nice SiN coated tool steel 20g "shell" lifters w/extra long, dry pushrods. (Req ext oil feed to rockers)
I imagine one could make them 2 piece, with the SiN coated "head" pressed into a
tube.(or would that be too easy?)

(reformatted for clarity. e-mail if interested)

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:15 pm

Jake can tool steel lifters for the type4 give reliable service in our engines

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat May 27, 2006 8:39 pm

Jake is almost certainly already familiar with this, but a decent explanation of how to put "stuff on steel" is here:

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/03/02454/altmeth.htm

For a (much... but very good) more technical explanation of CVD:
http://www.timedomaincvd.com/CVD_Fundam ... f_CVD.html
Also has a nice explanation of how the dual-frequency densification "trick" works.

I'm also looking into the idea of using a thermal plasma (atmospheric?) to deposit SiN is doable.
(think plasma cutter, almost exactly the same idea, and it appears the answer is "youbetcha")
Hit the 'home" button at the above link for some basic info on that.

Note the dual frequency trick would STILL work if the lifters were RF hot, in the plasma..

Basically one uses a SiC or B4N nozzle... and the nozzle get "eaten" by the plasma, ends up as the film on whatever you aim it at.
(B4N might work great as thin film like this, thin film and bulk sintered material have HUGE differences in mechanical characteristics... and B4N is a tiny fraction of the cost)

Rescue912 · Post by **Rescue912** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:58 pm

Sounds like fun Pile. If you need any automation help, that is what I do.

I've spoken with the LAMPL (laser assisted materials processing lab) guys at Purdue about making piece parts and they are very do-able, they just aren't interested

Their process heats SiN, zirconia or mullite with a laser just in front of the cutting tool to reduce it's shear strength and then it is cut as easy as tool steel. Neat idea, just have to get it out of the lab and into production.

http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~lampl/

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:00 pm

Can someone light a fire under these guy's that have the technology to offer us better lifters. Jake would you be willing to go into a partnership with an american supplier of the ceramic stuff. I think you said one company would not budge if the order wasn't $50,000.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue May 30, 2006 5:03 pm

Yep...sputter plating is prettty common. We used it on the solar cells i was working with the year before last. Layers of copper, then layers of Titanium tungsten. Ray

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:08 pm

Ray, that app is pretty much where the "youbetcha" came from, it has been used for high dep rate SiN passivation layer on solar cells.

I'm looking for a plasma cutter to molest...

If all else fails, I'll probably still have a plasma cutter.

I'm also wondering if you could do a W/SiN mix...(I don't see why not...)
Would be tough as nails and harder than a politicians heart.

You could probably also coat jugs with it... Nickasil would be like chocolate chips in butter by comparison.