My input on the New "Chinese" Type 4 cranks and ro

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:13 pm

OK, today I called Jorge at EMW to talk about the parts that Richard has been posting pictures of.

While the crankshafts that I have been using have given us flawless performance without even one failure in 600+ engines I try my best to keep an open mind and give any new part a chance to show me what it has, or what it does not have. While I generally don't fancy Chinese parts, I am sitting the origin of these parts aside for a thorough observation as I feel the Type 4 following deserves it- and I can do it more thorough than anyone.

I could very easily "Be Jake" and complain that Chinese junk sucks, and that is VERY hard for me NOT to do! I have always been very happy that junk parts have not invaded the Type 4 world and I will continue to do my best to keep that from occuring, at the same time these parts deserve a chance and I am more than willing to give them the chance to prove themselves. If they suck- I'll let you know, if they don't I'll also let you know and I will continue development and may start offering them in my engine kits when the time is right.

This is what I got from the phone chat today:
(Richard has posted specifics about the journal sizes and etc in his posts, no reason for me to go over that here I just want to cover the development process)

The crank that Richard pictured is the second one to be produced, the first one was filled with issues because it was the first article and thats to be totally expected. The issues were repaired and the crank was sent back for the second attempt. The second attempt yielded the crank that Richard has posted and according to Jorge it has good dimensions except for one small flaw that is being repaired for another trip back to China for revision.

At this point none of the cranks have been ran in an engine as the development is very ongoing at the present time and the dimensions are still being worked out.

So.... When I return from leman Jorge will have a crank ready to send to me for "thrashing", measuring and comparison against a standard German welded crank. The test outline is not even started yet, but it will include everything from balance comparisons to running BOTH cranks in the same engine for the same amount of time and doing both pre and post run analysis of not only the crankshaft, but also the crankcase to see what happens to align bore and case surfaces. I have some jigs already set up for this and the way the case will be measured is quite trick.

The first test engine I plan on running this crank in is my 2270 Type 4 Drag engine that Len and I are developing now, it'll be built with 100% off the shelf parts (including heads!) and will run 15:1 CR. I plan on having the first combo ready for the dyno in late July and ready for the track!

So, thats the scoop as I know it right now. I will be working with Jorge through this development and I hope that these cranks end up being a viable option for some of my kits and counter sales as our premium cores are becoming harder and harder to find.

Please understand that my observation of this product is being treated fairly and that instead of finding faults and offering no resolution I will try my best to help Jorge and the guys "Whip" the crank into what it needs to be to provide another option for the Type 4 world. While it would be so easy to call it "Chinese Junk" thats not happening with me- not this time!

My "Pedigreed Engines" will be staying full german, these cranks will take 20+ years to prove themselves as incredible as my current crankshafts.

So thats the details, more when I return from Lemans..

Passatman · Post by **Passatman** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:28 pm

Jake is their no one inthe US of A that can supply you with cranks.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:44 pm

Absolutely.. we have a great selection of German modified cranks as well as Billet units from SCAT and other billet units from one of my proprietary sources.

These parts will be coming into the US, simply due to the cost and the thorough testing of them is a necessity, otherwise we end up being like the Type 1 world, filled with Junk parts.

If these cranks would have never existed, I would not have cared at all, because **I** didn't need them, but the rest of themarket dictates much more than I do..

Hopefully these parts will help drop the price of the TIV without droping the quality, thats going to be hard to do but it demands a shot.

Tristessa · Post by **Tristessa** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:31 pm

We had various Chinese-made parts when I worked in a general autoparts store. While a lot of it was "typical Chinese junk", there were quite a few exceptions. Polished SBC intake manifolds, harmonic balancers, waterpumps, etc.

China is perfectly *capable* of making good stuff, it just doesn't *happen* very often -- and quite often it's because the company that sources their parts from China just doesn't give a damn. The Chinese wheel bearings we had at the parts store were absolute crap. Our supplier eventually started sourcing them from Slovakia .. and man, those Slovakian bearings were almost as good as the '60s-era FAG and SKFs we had hiding in the backroom.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:28 am

Well, the Scat billets are made there as well (tho not sure if they are really machined in the US or in China also), so there is still hope

Is there a retail price estimate (including nitrading) when/if they are up to spec?

Tnx,
Walter

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:51 am

I didn't even talk to him about the price. Richard mentioned in the 650.00 range, maybe a little less.

I actually would like to buy the raw forgings with only rough work done and finish them myself, including Ion Nitriding- it might work out that way if the material and rough work are quality.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:01 am

That would be an enormous leap for man-, ueh, type 4-kind!

If that could be worked out, it would bring one other issue (quality aftermarketparts availibility) of the type 4/type 1 difference down

Very cool! (and thanks to Richard for starting the ball rolling

)

Walter

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:08 am

If it would drop prices while retaining quality I would also consider it a positive occurance. The cost of the welded cranks has escolated a few bucks because I send my cores that have already been "worked" to DPR for them to do their work, perfect cores are getting very hard to find.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:59 am

Yes, I have noticed that the cores DPR uses (if you don't order through you) are not that nice (and I forgot that they don't nitrade if you don't specifically ask for it...

)
All the more reason to pursue this possibility

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:46 am

The Nitriding that we do is Ion Nitriding, it provides protection to no less than .012 into the journal. I have ground cranks .010 and the effects of the process were very evident, at .020 it's less evident, but still there...

The DPR cranks are Nitro-Carburized and while it's certainly better than nothing, it will never be as good as the Ion treatment.

(IOn Nitriding is typically a norm for diesel crankshafts, a diesel engine won't last 10 miles without the process being done to the crank-)

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:39 pm

The Chinese are 100% capable of meeting....and exceeding.....the specs of anything made anywhere. China does not have the problems Russia had when the "wall" fell....that being the fact that 90% of the 150,000+ factories in Russia were built either before or directly after WW II....had old equipment, or were uniquely configured so that they could not be adapted.
The vast majority of what has gone into the Chinese industrial machine in the last decade.....is new.....and relatively up to date.

The ONLY problems in Chinese industry right now....are the deficit of world class metalurgical and plastic formulation experience....which they are gaining rapidly every time a foreign company trips over there....to instruct them in teh manufacture of products for export.

The other main area they have problems in...is quality control ethic. Production management in China....is very old world. Many production managers are placed not because of training and experience....but because of connections, social class and family ties. This includes quality control management. Its a different ethic.
To get the same quality from teh chinese that you get from a company here....requires repeated trips, meetings, plant visits, instruction.....which all spells investment. If a company is astute its its observations, testing and re-specification of teh product to be manufactured in China....they can achieve world class quality. At that point...it becomes more of a labor quality and mangemnet issue to keep the product consistent.

The companies I work for have lots of dealings with China. Every new product launch takes about 3-6 trips to China to get right. Once its done....the parts flow like water.

They are going to absolutely kick our a*s...if we don't (a) get the cost of living down here so....(b) we can provide a decent living wage that is affordable to manufacturers....and (c) re-invigorate the work ethic and somehwhat...the quality ethic that built this country. Sorry about the rant. Ray

dd-ardvark · Post by **dd-ardvark** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:01 pm

Jake..., are you insinuating that 22 to 1 compression with a turbo is a bit much on a journals life span on a diesel.

VW Type1 Compression Trivia: The limited life span of the bearings utilizing a total head displacement of just 21cc (17.5 to 1 compression) on a 1641cc race prepped motor for an off road race car, are just a little over 75miles at race speed (7500+).

Never entertained the idea Ion Nitriding, I'm sure it may have helped..., but again it was just a type1, and theirs not a lot that can be done to make them last at that compression.

Parting Shot - What do Japanese cars / motor cycles, VW type1 engines, weed eaters and Christmas lights have in common?

It's cheaper and less aggravating to just put them out with the garbage when they quit working.

914fan · Post by **914fan** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:17 pm

Jake,
I have perhaps 3 69? stroke cranks. I believe they are "virgin" Send me an e-mail if they are something you may want. I had planned on asking you when I got some parts from you.
Nick