Stud relocation on Oxy question

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:15 pm

I've been reading this forum for the past days, and I can't find the answer. If the studs for an oxy are relocated to fit type 1 heads, the only way I read about is to use steel plugs and drill it excentre.
Has anybody ever tried to weld the holes and drill new holes in type 1 head stud pattern? Since the case is aluminium, it shouldn't be a problem to do so. It would seem to me that this would make a stronger sollution than the steel plugs.
Anyone have any thoughts/experience about this? (Rocky, Joe?)

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:37 pm

I suppose you could weld 'em up and redrill, but personally, I'd avoid EVER welding an engine case. You risk warping the case.

As fars as "strength" goes, no...welding would make a weaker head-stud arrangement. You have a soft metal (aluminum case) and a hard metal (chromolly studs) interfacing with one another...which one is going to fail? The aluminum. What can you do to strengthen this interface? Increase the surface area of the interface.
The threaded steel insert effectively functions like a very very oversized head-stud at the interface with the case. It is much stronger than an 8mm or 10mm stud threaded straight into the aluminum. You basically have to ask yourself, which would be easier to pull the threads out of the aluminum?

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:08 pm

The steel slug Rocky installs looks beefer than the factory threaded boss for the OEM boss'ed wasser studs.

I'm no expert, but a wasser is die cast aluminum.

Weld isn't, even in threads cut in virgin areas this would be a compromise..

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:05 pm

If it was easy everyone could do it. Just depends on how nice you want it. Welding at the head stud area I don't think so.
We offset machine with a special end mill & tap to bring the head stud in so we can install the threaded plug then come back & drill & tap the plug for the bug head stud pattern. Its precision machine work. I would not try welding in that area of the block. Thanks Rocky

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:19 am

Thanks for the replies.

pocketrocket wrote:If it was easy everyone could do it.

I never said it would be easy.

And I really don't underestimate building an oxy. My idea was, since there are modern cars made completely of aluminium (and completely welded together which is a very strong construction) that this could be an option for the studs. I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on this, since you are experienced at oxyboxers and I defenitly am not. That's why I'm here on STF, I want to learn about oxyboxers.

So installing the threaded plugs and changing to type 1 stud pattern would also be stronger than using the original stud pattern/mounting and using for instance the Gerd Weiser heads (scroll down almost to the end).

Just to put things in perspective, I want to have an engine for my resto project that is bullet proof. I'm not looking for top Hp, I want the most reliable aircooled engine I can build. I'm aiming at 130-150 Hp from a 2120 cc engine (76.4 crank and 94 aluminium barrels). This Bug will be my daily, so I don't want to overdo things either.

Parts I have so far: DG shortblock, Megasquirt computer, Kawasaki ZX12R throttle bodies. Still looking for the crank and ignition parts (EDIS). I haven't made up my mind about camshaft and heads, I'll be asking for your advice by than.

Why an oxyboxer and not an aftermarket type 1 case? I understand it's the best and most reliable case VW has ever made. But mostly the challenge of building something that hasn't been done before in my country (The Netherlands). A lot of people talk about it, but no-one has actually build one. Who know's, I might be the first.

I don't mind the costs, it would only take longer to build it. But building and learning from you guys is half the fun.

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:49 pm

CarlKever wrote: So installing the threaded plugs and changing to type 1 stud pattern would also be stronger than using the original stud pattern/mounting and using for instance the Gerd Weiser heads (scroll down almost to the end).

The problem is finding streetable heads that fit the stock wasserboxer head stud pattern. There are a few folks who have converted the wasserboxer on a low budget, running the stock wasserboxer headstud pattern with 4" bore race heads. While the case has held up, it still is not as strong as using the larger diameter steel insert, then redrilling the stock stud pattern back in.

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:34 am

Oke, that's clear.

Another advantage besides strength is, that these Gerd Weiser heads (at current rate) are about $840 a piece. That's without springs, valves, etc.

The choice in type 1 heads is a whole lot bigger, and for that same amount of money (or less) I could buy better heads to fit my oxy that are complete.

Thanks for the replies, I'll be bothering you with more questions in the future.

SiQDiZ · Post by **SiQDiZ** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:24 am

Are you planning on running heads with the type1 studs spacings?

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:01 am

Hey Oz,

Yes, I am.

Another part that has arrived: A 2.1 liter crankshaft.

I'll be contacting Ahnendorp soon. I read somewhere that they did the oxy conversion to the crankcase several times. So I guess they have the experience to do this conversion the right way. I'll keep you posted.

SiQDiZ · Post by **SiQDiZ** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:59 am

I'll be doing my machinework over at Ahnendorp's aswell, they're a well known tuner in Germany. ( one of the big surviving tuners )

Did you allready split the engine case? I do wonder wether the 2.1 crank drops right in your 1.9 carter.

If you want to fit in mahle/cima/kolbenscmidt cylinders you will either have to mill down the base of the cylinders or let Rocky / Joe mill you some adapters. You can have the lifter bore bushed over at Ahnendorp's , John "ZZPACKED" Brandenburg did that aswell, as his type1 carter utilized typeIV hydraulic lifters just like your wasserboxer does.

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:08 am

SiQDiZ wrote:Did you allready split the engine case? I do wonder wether the 2.1 crank drops right in your 1.9 carter.

From what I read here on STF there is a bit of cutting involved, nothing serious. I'll have Ahnendorp do all the machine work on the case, since they have the experience to do it right. I don't want to take any chances with this engine.

I won't be using hydraulic lifters, I'll switch to type 1 lifters.

I'm going to install aluminium/nicasil cilinders on this engine, most likely bore 94 mm. That makes a 2.1 liter, more than enough for a daily streetcar.

I'm interested in these (the one on top). A complete set for 800 euro. I've been talking to Ingmar (the shop owner) about these cilinders. He had them tested in a laboratory along with an original Porsche cilinder. The result was, that these cilinders are made from the same type of aluminium as the Porsche one's and the nicasil layer has the same thickness. All the specification are an exact match.

I don't know of anyone who has installed them. Ingmar will be installing a set in the orange racer, so I'll wait for that to see what they're driving experience will bring. This engine is a long term project, so I have enough time to wait for that.

SiQDiZ · Post by **SiQDiZ** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:25 am

CarlKever wrote:
SiQDiZ wrote:Did you allready split the engine case? I do wonder wether the 2.1 crank drops right in your 1.9 carter.
From what I read here on STF there is a bit of cutting involved, nothing serious. I'll have Ahnendorp do all the machine work on the case, since they have the experience to do it right. I don't want to take any chances with this engine. I won't be using hydraulic lifters, I'll switch to type 1 lifters.

I'm going to install aluminium/nicasil cilinders on this engine, most likely bore 94 mm. That makes a 2.1 liter, more than enough for a daily streetcar.

I'm interested in these (the one on top). A complete set for 800 euro. I've been talking to Ingmar (the shop owner) about these cilinders. He had them tested in a laboratory along with an original Porsche cilinder. The result was, that these cilinders are made from the same type of aluminium as the Porsche one's and the nicasil layer has the same thickness. All the specification are an exact match.

I don't know of anyone who has installed them. Ingmar will be installing a set in the orange racer, so I'll wait for that to see what they're driving experience will bring. This engine is a long term project, so I have enough time to wait for that.

Yes those cylinders would be nice! But you will have to have those machined into the case, or have adaptors made. The spigothole in WBX cases is different than you would see on a T1 engine with 94mm bore.

Offcourse you will use solid lifters instead of hydraulics, that's why you'll have to get those lifterbores bushed. This costs 200 euro's at Ahnendorp.

Cool project Carl! I'll bookmark this one!

CarlKever · Post by **CarlKever** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:05 am

Thanks Oz.

Robin is also reading this topic, he send me some usefull tips. He will also send me the drawing of the adapters that I need to mount the ZX12 throttle bodies to IDF pattern intake manifolds.

Maybe this engine will be up and running sooner than I expected.