QSC "2.4L" Waterboxer pistons

Post by **david58** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:55 am

Here I fixed it for ya. Nice pics.

tencentlife wrote:Without going into boo-coo technical details as I normally do, here's some pics taken while building the new 2.2 wbx I installed in my van about a month ago:

Painting the crankcase; old seals covered with tape were used to mask the seal bosses; extra nuts mask studs; old water pump masks the pump flange

Old exhaust valves are a nice fit to mask the pushrod tube spigots

Strong rare-earth magnets hold the valve stems together inside the case. This worked out really well and saved lots of time cutting tape to fit

Old water jacket seal masked the jacket end. No need to cover it completely; just avoid spraying into the interior.

Primer coated. Jones kept hanging around. I think he might be a secret huff-junky

This is the oil pickup tube mod I do on wbx cases, to make it a direct suction feed to the pump without the overpressure return

The overpressure return galley has to be ported back to the sump

This case had its oil drain drilled out and was using a huge 5/8"-11 bolt as a plug, with many many stacked washers. I turned the bolt head down to fit within the drain hole boss, welded on a hex head, and pressed a small neodymium magnet into the end

Plastigage strip ready to check rod bearing clearance

Measuring after the fit; they were all nice like this one, which has between 1 and 2 thousandths clearance. Most were closer to 0.001", which is where I like it

The bottom end laid up in the case, ready to close up. EMPI 5.5" chromoly rods, custom bushed for 24mm pins, ARP bolts. CB 2254 hydro cam. I'm reusing the main bearings with same case and crank because this engine's for me and they were in such great shape. Wbx bottom ends are bomber!

Sealant bead on the right half, special attention around each stud hole so oil won't leak along the studs

Setting up the crank endplay

Shim pack in, mainseal in, new o-ring in flywheel, ready to bolt up

Gotta hold it down steady for the 80ft.lb. torque on the flywheel bolts

Then it's gotta be hoisted back onto the stand

Mocked up with the 96mm QSC pistons on the 5.5" rods, the cuts to make zero deck have to be determined. Zero the dial at zero deck

And measure each piston in place to see how much is proud. This one had the most: 1.89mm has to come off

Centering up a piston on a faceplate fixture

And giving it a haircut

Final check, zero deck

Rings compressed and knocking it into the jug

Final installing #1 piston and cylinder

Both banks done

Checking combustion chambers on new AMC heads for equal volume with a syringe and acrylic plate

Some light port work

Both heads on

Close fit on the crossover pipe with the CB Maxipump. Oil temp sender is in place of the OEM hi-range OP switch

Easier to do all this little plumbing upside-down on a stand

The old S&S header (the header that just won't die) fitted up. Jaycee telescoping tubes

Trasko filter; Mocal t-stat sandwich adapter regulates oil flow to the external cooler

Detail of the left head. I wrap the water suction pipe with Reflectix tape since it runs so close to the exhaust collector and the #4 runner

Ready to get stuffed

Ridin' the trolley

Lleniendo

Home again, home again, jiggidy-jig

Notice the hole in the muffler heat shroud. Makes it easy to put a large ratchet and socket on the crank pulley nut. Wish I'da thoughta this a long time ago. Also, block, alternator and other grounds ganged on the unused fuel pump flange stud.

One last mod to make coolant filling easier; drilled out and ported the radiator bleeder bolt. So much easier to deal with when the water's squirting out!

Hope you enjoyed watching as much as I did building.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:17 am

This is just a quick rehash of the current lifter situation, my read, YMMV.

Tool steel lifters for T1s are likely to be available from multiple sources at different levels of price/quality Real Soon Now.

Only time will tell if they really help, and how bad the QC is vs how well they work. Theory and reality usually meet violently, hope this to be an exception for the hobbys sake..

T4 TS lifters... Jakes pushing into testing phase. May be another source or two, only time will tell.

Seems like the folks making Silicon Nitride composites would have had time to tool up by now/made buckets of money, so prices could be more reasonable, but Schubeck likely has them all still tied up with lawyers, and they are all more than likely finding far more profitable uses every day for the material.

It is the closest thing to unobtanium in my mind... I'm glad I have some

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:39 am

Yeah the TS lifters will be great.. but $$$... great for the extreme applications most will be looking for, but what about some less extreme cams? or does it seem that only the best will do....

Wish I could have bought he ceramic ones too.. was convinced but didnt have the money... and didnt have the knowledge about what parts I was going to use for these engines (yeah its been a long time happening)

I may in the first instsance, have to go with the stock cam and see what happens.. then rip it down for the CB hydro cam and try again... then for the web, but run solid lifters... dont know what will happen... but its got to be done... Many great thanks to Tencentlife for he "experiments"...

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:25 am

The TS lifters can be made with standard tooling, and potentially will almost be as good, and in some ways better than the Ceramics.

IF MASS PRODUCED, they could probably be sold for about the same price as std "premium" production iron lifters, that have been reground/coated/nitrided etc. The material cost isn't brutal like the ceramics, and there's is no monopoly on tool steel...

Another combo used on big diesels that may or may not have been looked at is simply using run of the mill 4140 bodies and tungsten carbide coating the faces. (losing the easy regrindability of the tool steel, but may be cheaper and actually more effective)

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:31 pm

Oh, hey, thanks for copying it here. I left it as a link because I didn't want to be a bandwidth hog. But hey..

What cam you got in the combo?
Sounds strange using the 1.1's on the intake and 1.25's on the exhaust... from my research, I was getting that the intake is what wakes up this engine...

It's the CB 2254 (adv. 308D/ D @.050" 236/ L on-cam .319").

I know, the lifter combo is counterintuitive, but lowering the intake lift added 2mph at the end of a 2-mile torture-trial hill climb I've been using near my house to evaluate tuning changes under load at WOT. Couple of things going on: 1.1's vs 1.25's on intake moves the intake closing @.050" up 4deg., from 46 to 42 ABDC, so the dynamic CR got higher. It also reduced the valve overlap period at 50 thou by 4deg. as well. Plus, there's a higher intake charge velocity with a lower lift, and that may be aiding late cylinder filling with the slightly longer piston dwell at BDC via charge inertia. More and bigger intake breathing is key at higher rpm, but in the lower band it can actually rob some power because charge velocity is lower.

Basically, the real problem is I've overcammed. Now I'm trying to make up for it by altering effective valve timing thru use of the different rockers. I actually think I might broaden the power band further by just going back to 1.1's all around, because that will decrease the overlap another 3deg. The problem is, at the moment I don't have a full set of 1.1 rockers I can use. I just need to get a set of T1 rockers to try going 1.1 all around. Next trip to the wrecking yard I'll pick some up. I think that's going to be the trick, until I can get a better tuned header system on there, and maybe alter the ECU clock speed to get the injection cutoff up to 6200 or so.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:47 pm

I could use 4 1.25 rockers... 8mm for 911 adjusters would be ideal, but I don't know if they ever came that way.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:45 pm

Oh, don't worry. I have plenty of uses for those. They'll probably go back on here when I get the new exhaust made up. I have a whole 'nother set in 8mm for the next job, too. Just don't have any 1.1's except the stock wbx ones. 10mm threads so I can't use the Rhinos or the 8mm ones.

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:16 pm

I have 2 sets of 1.4's, havent tried them on anything though... is it worth it witht he std cam?

Yeah.. I get the higher velocity thing... and I agree.. the cam is prob too much.. should give lots of top end.. what was the other cam you used? had a bit less didnt it?

Would more cc's "soften" that cam though?

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:55 pm

51MAN wrote:I have 2 sets of 1.4's, havent tried them on anything though... is it worth it witht he std cam?

Yeah.. I get the higher velocity thing... and I agree.. the cam is prob too much.. should give lots of top end.. what was the other cam you used? had a bit less didnt it?

Would more cc's "soften" that cam though?

The stock MV cam with 1.4 rockers is basically an 86 timing wise, with more lift... For most uses it's probably about ideal, and IMHO it's probably ~ as much duration as you would want in a Vanagon, due to the weight, and the lift is still doable w/o heroics.

(perhaps something with wider lobe centers to extend the RPM range while limiting overlap ?)

The 1.4s are about opening the valves more, FASTER as much as the extra lift.

I still need an extra ~50 thou spring installed height to use mine, lift works out to exactly .500" with the real 86 and 1.4 rockers, .410 on the exhaust.

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:41 pm

Tencentlife, this is going to sound bizzare, but try RETARDING the timing 3-5 degrees, and ignore the bottom end, see how the top end responds.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:26 pm

Already done it. Makes no diff.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Tue May 20, 2008 6:14 pm

I got some new sets of the 96mm slugs from QSC recently. I was able to order these direct from QSC for $180 per set.

Just checked them out: they fixed the wrist pin problem, now it's a good fit and clears the clips; rings still have too much sideplay, 0.005" on top two.

Not knowing their composition, I don't think I would use their rings anyway. So figure rings are an extra cost, $100 at worst. Still a cheap deal on P&L's if you can make the comp height work with your setup. For me, it works out well for making high-CR motors. The lathe work is a breeze, if you have one.

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:00 pm

Cool Chris
So still need the tops skimming.. ok that sounds fine for running LPG (Propane) and we also have higher grade fuels here.. (95, 97, 99 RON)

enquired about the stroker cranks.. price has gone up and with the shipping are not as cheap as I had hoped... have to do 1 though as I have the set of 98mm Oettinger pistons and barrels...

fastback · Post by **fastback** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:13 pm

51MAN wrote:Cool Chris
So still need the tops skimming.. ok that sounds fine for running LPG (Propane) and we also have higher grade fuels here.. (95, 97, 99 RON)

enquired about the stroker cranks.. price has gone up and with the shipping are not as cheap as I had hoped... have to do 1 though as I have the set of 98mm Oettinger pistons and barrels...

and don't forget E85

get rid of the problem and sell your 98 barrels to meeeee!!

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:08 pm

Yeah, you just stick these one some 5.5" rods on a 2.1 crank, skim off the tops and you end up with 9.7:1 static CR. Choose a cam for how high you want the dynamic CR to be. The CB 2252 closes intake at 42 ABDC and that puts DCR up near 9, and that should be fine for those high-grade fuels. If I was aiming to use E85 as my primary fuel, I would even consider an even longer rod, or if I had more money add stroke for more displacement, too. At some point those ethanol fuels will be more commonly available here, and when they are I intend to build really high CR motors to use them, but to date they're still only available in a few places. But at my altitude I can still run regular 86 CLC even with 8:7:1 DCR, because at 5000' ASL that looks like 7.7.

I also talked with Scat today about having them make up their chromoly rods with 24mm pins from their shop, instead of buying them first and modding locally. No problem; they'll do them there for $20 apiece, no minimum order, which is cheaper than my local guy will do them for. So I'll be ordering some sets from them so I have them on hand. The orders for new motors are rolling in, and I have to try to stay ahead of the game.