OK, I've been looking around for the best way to try fitting wider tires on my bug and from what I've found I'm starting to think that widened fenders would be the best option.
I was thinking of trying to fit 225x50x15/45x16 on the front and rear of the car. Is it possible to fit tires this wide on a bug?(I haven't seen anyone running more than 205 in the front) if so, what size fenders am I going to need? also, any recommendations on places to buy them?
My car is a '74 standard.
(oh, and sorry for all the noob questions!)
Widened fenders?
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KonaKona
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:34 pm
1) Yes, probably just a few inches though. I am still looking exactly what to do to stiffen up the suspension, but when that is done the car will probably be lowered around 1.5-3"
2) No (Just to clarify, shortening the beam reduces the front wheelbase width wise, correct? I'll go look it up real quick and come back with an edit. EDIT: couldn't find much on it after searching. and I would think I'd be a well covered topic as well...)
2) No (Just to clarify, shortening the beam reduces the front wheelbase width wise, correct? I'll go look it up real quick and come back with an edit. EDIT: couldn't find much on it after searching. and I would think I'd be a well covered topic as well...)
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KonaKona
- Posts: 13
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1-sorry, I coulden't tell weather that was a question or a recdcomendation. In either case I once again tried looking them up and came up short. starting to wonder if my searching skills are to blame here.
2-Don't have any yet. I'm trying to get a complete list of everything I need to do. From what little rechearch I have done, it looks like rims that come in the VW bolt pattern aren't exactly common. Unless there is a place that sells a bunch of them (wow, I really need to do more searching after this...) then it would just come down to what ever I can find.
of to do more searching. bolt patterns, rim width to tire width info, drop spindels, mfg, and more. will edit if I find anything interesting.
2-Don't have any yet. I'm trying to get a complete list of everything I need to do. From what little rechearch I have done, it looks like rims that come in the VW bolt pattern aren't exactly common. Unless there is a place that sells a bunch of them (wow, I really need to do more searching after this...) then it would just come down to what ever I can find.
of to do more searching. bolt patterns, rim width to tire width info, drop spindels, mfg, and more. will edit if I find anything interesting.
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MNAirHead
- Posts: 9570
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:12 am
This a question...
1-Drop spildles may push your tires out slightly... the mfg does make a difference.
2-Rims.. your offset etc will have an impact on where/how your tire sits.
Bolt Patterns.
If you put on wheel adaptors (not suggested for most cars) this will also push your tires out... .. these can be used to space on funky offsets etc.
Sincerely wishing I could be of bigger service for your question.. unfortunately there's so much math that goes into this, we'd need EXACT offsets to give you an EXACT answwer.
I'm super glad you're doing this homework and asking questions.. When flipping through pix etc.. you'll notice most folks do not plan where their tires fit.. they basically narrow the beam to the max.. stuff all the junk in there.. and leave 2-3" extra space under the fenders.
I'm a fan of a VERY well planned front end that mates to the rear.
1-Drop spildles may push your tires out slightly... the mfg does make a difference.
2-Rims.. your offset etc will have an impact on where/how your tire sits.
Bolt Patterns.
If you put on wheel adaptors (not suggested for most cars) this will also push your tires out... .. these can be used to space on funky offsets etc.
Sincerely wishing I could be of bigger service for your question.. unfortunately there's so much math that goes into this, we'd need EXACT offsets to give you an EXACT answwer.
I'm super glad you're doing this homework and asking questions.. When flipping through pix etc.. you'll notice most folks do not plan where their tires fit.. they basically narrow the beam to the max.. stuff all the junk in there.. and leave 2-3" extra space under the fenders.
I'm a fan of a VERY well planned front end that mates to the rear.
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KonaKona
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:34 pm
well, after a little research, aircooled.net sells drop spindle kits, so now a few more questions...
aircooled.net looks like a reputable seller from what looking i've done. are they?
it said the kit lowers it 2 1/2". is there any way to lower it less than this? diffrent springs perhaps instead of the spindels? I'm guessing it might be better to try to find shorter springs or coilovers and have a extra 1/2" or so to work with (still need to get more info on how to stiffen up the suspention all the way around, but i'm guessing that i need new springs. I also need a new sway bar seeing as the current one is sticking out the front)
It also said that they sell blank rotors. Would i be better off tring to get my current rims widened (dont know if that would affect the offset or not), try to find wider rims in a vw bolt pattern (looks like those are hard to come by), or get a blank rotor and get it drilled in a "more common" pattern and find some decent rims (might be able to find a particular offset in this case)
(oh, after some research I have burned the JC Whitney mag that the guy who sold me the vw gave me. I remember reading a bad story that included the seller having one of those...)
aircooled.net looks like a reputable seller from what looking i've done. are they?
it said the kit lowers it 2 1/2". is there any way to lower it less than this? diffrent springs perhaps instead of the spindels? I'm guessing it might be better to try to find shorter springs or coilovers and have a extra 1/2" or so to work with (still need to get more info on how to stiffen up the suspention all the way around, but i'm guessing that i need new springs. I also need a new sway bar seeing as the current one is sticking out the front)
It also said that they sell blank rotors. Would i be better off tring to get my current rims widened (dont know if that would affect the offset or not), try to find wider rims in a vw bolt pattern (looks like those are hard to come by), or get a blank rotor and get it drilled in a "more common" pattern and find some decent rims (might be able to find a particular offset in this case)
(oh, after some research I have burned the JC Whitney mag that the guy who sold me the vw gave me. I remember reading a bad story that included the seller having one of those...)
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Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
The "other" way to alter the front suspension height is by changing the angle of the center anchor point for the torsion leaves. The most popular way is with weld-in adjusters, which come in two basic styles. Either needs to be welded into the beam. It's possible to weld in the Avis style without dismantling the beam; on a Brazilian beam that's round at the center they're arguably the best choice, but on an OEM German beam that's crimped over the anchor block I would use the Sway-a-Way style.
Changing the ride height this way can raise hell with the suspension & steering geometry (with "drop" spindles all that is unaltered) but if you only go a moderate amount (<2") the problems won't be severe.
Sway-a-Way sells replacement torsion leaves which are 15% stiffer than stock (not much change for $180) and 3/4" swaybars, including ones bent up to give better ground clearance on a lowered beam.
I guess I should ask why you think you'd need more than a 205 tire up front - I can't see enough benefit from it to justify the hassle (it's hard enough just to get in a 205 and still have a normal turning circle - even with a narrowed beam). As a point of reference, 16" Boxster tires are 205/55 front and 225/50 rear - I doubt that a rear-engine bug needs more front tire than a mid-engine Boxster.
Sway-a-Way adjuster:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DtA ... aveAdj.jpg
Avis adjuster:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CL3 ... letreeauto.
Due to the limited selection of wheels (esp. 16 & 17") available with the VW 4x130mm bolt pattern it's popular to go with Porsche (5x130mm) or the 4x100mm used on many modern small cars. Rotors & drums for these aren't hard to find predrilled/tapped for lug bolts, although personally I'd prefer press-in studs.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 2D2963%2DB
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D310
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D100
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D301
Changing the ride height this way can raise hell with the suspension & steering geometry (with "drop" spindles all that is unaltered) but if you only go a moderate amount (<2") the problems won't be severe.
Sway-a-Way sells replacement torsion leaves which are 15% stiffer than stock (not much change for $180) and 3/4" swaybars, including ones bent up to give better ground clearance on a lowered beam.
I guess I should ask why you think you'd need more than a 205 tire up front - I can't see enough benefit from it to justify the hassle (it's hard enough just to get in a 205 and still have a normal turning circle - even with a narrowed beam). As a point of reference, 16" Boxster tires are 205/55 front and 225/50 rear - I doubt that a rear-engine bug needs more front tire than a mid-engine Boxster.
Sway-a-Way adjuster:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DtA ... aveAdj.jpg
Avis adjuster:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CL3 ... letreeauto.
Due to the limited selection of wheels (esp. 16 & 17") available with the VW 4x130mm bolt pattern it's popular to go with Porsche (5x130mm) or the 4x100mm used on many modern small cars. Rotors & drums for these aren't hard to find predrilled/tapped for lug bolts, although personally I'd prefer press-in studs.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 2D2963%2DB
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D310
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D100
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D501%2D301
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KonaKona
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:34 pm
Just found a very usefull thread about lowering the car over in the suspention fourm (while looking for info on brakes, no less!) that helps clear things up a good bit for the rear, but thats another thread. next round of questions....
the site that Marc posted links from (the last four) has front brake kits that come with lowered spindles. I was reading about them and it said that they don't push the wheels out. Don't know if thats true or not but none the less if the store is reputible then I'll put those on the really big list of stuff to save up for (RBLoSTSUF I guess?) and that'll take care of all the spindle business. (EDIT- also, looks like the spindles are a better option because I don't like the idea of messing around with all the geometry that much. maybe some more caster but other than that...)
Also, looking into the 4x100mm wheels, it seems most are somewhere between 6" and 7" wide. 205mm is around 8" and 225" is almost 9". Are 7" rims acceptable for these size tires or do I need to find wider ones? Also, are there any real benefits for using XXX/45-16R tires and 16" rims over using XXX/50-15R tires and 15" rims? the 16's seem to be a bit more expensive for everything on it.
the site that Marc posted links from (the last four) has front brake kits that come with lowered spindles. I was reading about them and it said that they don't push the wheels out. Don't know if thats true or not but none the less if the store is reputible then I'll put those on the really big list of stuff to save up for (RBLoSTSUF I guess?) and that'll take care of all the spindle business. (EDIT- also, looks like the spindles are a better option because I don't like the idea of messing around with all the geometry that much. maybe some more caster but other than that...)
Also, looking into the 4x100mm wheels, it seems most are somewhere between 6" and 7" wide. 205mm is around 8" and 225" is almost 9". Are 7" rims acceptable for these size tires or do I need to find wider ones? Also, are there any real benefits for using XXX/45-16R tires and 16" rims over using XXX/50-15R tires and 15" rims? the 16's seem to be a bit more expensive for everything on it.
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Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Approved rim widths for 205/55R16 are 5.5-7.5", for 225/50R16 6.0-8.0".
Larger-diameter rims allow fitting shorter-sidewall tires for any given diameter. Shorter-sidewall tires will give crisper steering response and better handling (in most cases) than a similar tire in a taller-sidewall size.
Ride harshness is increased.
Larger-diameter rims also allow a car to be lowered further before running afoul of the law in some states where no part of the chassis is allowed to be lower than the lowest point of the rim. These laws were written when 14 and 15" rims were the norm - larger rims obviously violate the intent, but not the letter of the law.
As a practical matter on a Standard Beetle with drop spindles, with 16s there should be no concern at all about clearance between the lower ball joint and the front rim - with 15s you can have an issue here depending upon rim width/offset and the shape of the inner "bell".
But mostly, larger rims are chosen for looks.
http://www.yokohamatire.com/customer_se ... izing.aspx
Larger-diameter rims allow fitting shorter-sidewall tires for any given diameter. Shorter-sidewall tires will give crisper steering response and better handling (in most cases) than a similar tire in a taller-sidewall size.
Ride harshness is increased.
Larger-diameter rims also allow a car to be lowered further before running afoul of the law in some states where no part of the chassis is allowed to be lower than the lowest point of the rim. These laws were written when 14 and 15" rims were the norm - larger rims obviously violate the intent, but not the letter of the law.
As a practical matter on a Standard Beetle with drop spindles, with 16s there should be no concern at all about clearance between the lower ball joint and the front rim - with 15s you can have an issue here depending upon rim width/offset and the shape of the inner "bell".
But mostly, larger rims are chosen for looks.
http://www.yokohamatire.com/customer_se ... izing.aspx