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Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:46 am
by Eddie010
Ok back again.
Found a new 78mm (50mm journal), but have a question,
Do the 131mm (5.160) Rods clear the piston skirts or do I need 135mm (5.325) rods?
Thanks in regards
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
by Eddie010
It is Decision time,
Got 2 options, everything else is ready so can start building.
But really don t know what to choose.
The well known tough Deutz cylinders or the QSC aluminium Cylinders.
Maybe you guys have some experience with both or just the one.
Disadvantages or advantages???
Like to hear from you?
Thanks in advance
Eddie
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:56 am
by wreck
I've no experience with the QSC cylinders and couldn't find too much feed back on them a few years ago when I was looking for cylinders . I do have Deutz cylinders . I pulled the engine down after 20.000km/ 2-3 years of daily driving to fix a few leaks / inspection and found I still had hone marks in the bores , very little wear . 103mm bore with J&E pistons . 10.5 to comp .
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:38 am
by Eddie010
Thanks Wreck,
Yeah I understand the Deutz are tough, good to hear there are still signs of hone marks visible after 20.000km..
Was your head sealing also ok? Did you something special?
Regard Eddie
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:30 am
by wreck
head seal was good . 1mm copper head gasket . 30 foot pounds tension . I spent a long time making sure the cylinders were flat . A good friend is a professional engine builder and he gave me a good tip . When you think you have the decks done and the cylinders flat and are doing the final assembly . torque the heads , leave the sealant on the cylinder bases to cure . then remove the heads and recheck the cylinders are flat . If not flat shim out the low cylinder to get them flat , a few thou won't affect compression that much so it's more important to get the cylinders flat than have perfect equal deck heights . It's pain removing cylinders and cleaning sealant etc but it's worth it in the long run .
measuring cylinders .JPG
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:47 am
by Eddie010
That is good info Wreck,
Will use this info for the built.
I see you used a bit more torque than in the manual.
Regards Eddie
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:36 am
by Clatter
I don't have any experience with the China nickies myself,
but,
FWIW,
There are a few on TOS that swear by them.
I'm guessing it's like a lot of China parts,
Some get lucky,
Some do not.
Depends upon how lucky you feel;
Just because a whole ton of people run them doesn't mean it will happen the same for you.
The Deutz are a known quantity,
But aluminum cylinders will shed a lot more heat..
Maybe more of a question of how badly you want to run the motor for a really long time.
Many of us are ripping them apart again for fun and to make changes.
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:10 pm
by Tony Z
wreck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:30 am
head seal was good . 1mm copper head gasket . 30 foot pounds tension . I spent a long time making sure the cylinders were flat . A good friend is a professional engine builder and he gave me a good tip . When you think you have the decks done and the cylinders flat and are doing the final assembly . torque the heads , leave the sealant on the cylinder bases to cure . then remove the heads and recheck the cylinders are flat . If not flat shim out the low cylinder to get them flat , a few thou won't affect compression that much so it's more important to get the cylinders flat than have perfect equal deck heights . It's pain removing cylinders and cleaning sealant etc but it's worth it in the long run .
measuring cylinders .JPG
What I've also done in the past is to use a good paper gasket (Klinger or similar) as a shim between the barrel and case. Since the paper will compress a little to its final thickness, it also allows for a slight variation in deck height as you describe above. The head will force one gasket to compress a tad more than the other if needed - but it will still be tight and secure.
Obviously this is for equal decks to begin with, its not a bandaid to fix an error.
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:42 pm
by Eddie010
Clatter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:36 am
I don't have any experience with the China nickies myself,
but,
FWIW,
There are a few on TOS that swear by them.
I'm guessing it's like a lot of China parts,
Some get lucky,
Some do not.
Depends upon how lucky you feel;
Just because a whole ton of people run them doesn't mean it will happen the same for you.
The Deutz are a known quantity,
But aluminum cylinders will shed a lot more heat..
Maybe more of a question of how badly you want to run the motor for a really long time.
Many of us are ripping them apart again for fun and to make changes.
Thanks Clatter,
'on TOS' , sorry don t know this??
Maybe more of a question of how badly you want to run the motor for a really long time.
Well the plan is to drive to shows (somethimes a few 100km) and race them..
So also highway driving for a couple of hours... the big reason I choose type 4 engines.
Will only do a couple 1000km a year, max. (some years a few 100km).
Well this engine I want to keep for a long time..so..
Regards Eddie
Re: 2400 engine build
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:47 pm
by Eddie010
Tony Z wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:10 pm
What I've also done in the past is to use a good paper gasket (Klinger or similar) as a shim between the barrel and case. Since the paper will compress a little to its final thickness, it also allows for a slight variation in deck height as you describe above. The head will force one gasket to compress a tad more than the other if needed - but it will still be tight and secure.
Obviously this is for equal decks to begin with, its not a bandaid to fix an error.
Good tip, thanks
Regards Eddie
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:54 pm
by Clatter
Sorry using another TLA (Three Letter Acronym..)
That Other Site thesamba.com
Several there claim to have run the QSC Nickies for years in a bus,
And if they can survive in a bus, they can survive anywhere, right?
It used to be that I hated having my motor break again,
Now, I'm pulling it while it's still good, to try another.
Where you sit on this end of the spectrum might determine which cylinders you choose,
Seeing as you have them both there now.
Otherwise, if you already had only one or the other,
Your choice would be made.
I say flip a coin..
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:52 pm
by Eddie010
Clatter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:54 pm
I say flip a coin..
Haha yeah that crossed my mind..
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:50 am
by Eddie010
Sorry for all the questions but trying to complete everything for the building stage.
Have you guys placed Type 1 8mm Chromoly Head Studs with case savers, or is this a waste of money and time
and should i use the stock Type 4 head studs... going for about 1 to 11 compression ratio.
Thanks in advance
Eddie
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:05 am
by wreck
I'm at 10.5 comp with stock head studs . heads removed at 20,000km for inspection and a few upgrades . the oil/carbon was from guide wear .No compression leaks .
P4191118.JPG
Re: 2450 (78mm x 100mm) engine build
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:49 am
by Type 4 Unleashed
Eddie010 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:50 am
Sorry for all the questions but trying to complete everything for the building stage.
Have you guys placed Type 1 8mm Chromoly Head Studs with case savers, or is this a waste of money and time
and should i use the stock Type 4 head studs... going for about 11 to 1 compression ratio.
Thanks in advance
Eddie
I have never seen a Type lV head stud pull let alone break, so yes to replace them with Type 1 studs is a waste of time and money. The only reason to replace Type lV studs are for longer ones, for a longer stroke & rod stroker, and the only ones I know of, that are longer than stock and are a direct bolt in replacement are from EMW.