Then it'll be ready for the next trip to California!MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:The Pinz is as simple as they come... Thats why when I noted the changes with it, I knew someting was up....
My Pinz is only gonna be carbbed for another month or so before it gets EFI and direct fire ignition...
Something is going on with the fuel these days!
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500LbGorilla
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Super Swampers for 3,000 miles would be true punishment!
I'm hardcore and drive the Pinz pretty much daily now an hour each way to work and back. After an hour I'm ready to get out of it! I parked the 912 because I was afraid of getting rear ended (damn near happened 4 times in a month!) and with the Pinz I don't care. If anyone rear ends me they are going to have a VERY bad day and I'll just drive away, or throw it in reverse with the diffs locked and crush their radiator laden piece of junk!
Plus, the Pinz has two built in gun racks, I can carry a shotgun AND a rifle at the same time!
It's an addictive vehicle to drive, just don't try to talk on the cell phone and you'll be fine.... The only radio I have are four 34X10.5 Swampers howling like mad!
I'm hardcore and drive the Pinz pretty much daily now an hour each way to work and back. After an hour I'm ready to get out of it! I parked the 912 because I was afraid of getting rear ended (damn near happened 4 times in a month!) and with the Pinz I don't care. If anyone rear ends me they are going to have a VERY bad day and I'll just drive away, or throw it in reverse with the diffs locked and crush their radiator laden piece of junk!
Plus, the Pinz has two built in gun racks, I can carry a shotgun AND a rifle at the same time!
It's an addictive vehicle to drive, just don't try to talk on the cell phone and you'll be fine.... The only radio I have are four 34X10.5 Swampers howling like mad!
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
As simple as the pinz is from the sound of it....the two big benefits would be just much lower evaporation and just plain lower combustion temps. Especially without a charcoal canister....unless you are getting pressure build up on the tank. I would bet that this is where the higher milage is coming from.
A number of years back I did some measuring. Without even running the engine , on a hot day...just the sloshing around and an unsealed gas tank (meaning it vents to air)....lost a little over 1.5 gallons. I know this because I was flatbedding my 412 across country from Atlanta to Dallas. Filled it up....when I got it off the flat bed t o drive to dinner in Memphis.....it was down 1/8th tank!
I have seen nearly this much many times since...parking the beast at the airport while I was out of town.
Now the cannister is back on....but evaporation loss can be huge. Anything that raises teh flashpoint but doesn't badly affect combustion is fine by me. Ray
A number of years back I did some measuring. Without even running the engine , on a hot day...just the sloshing around and an unsealed gas tank (meaning it vents to air)....lost a little over 1.5 gallons. I know this because I was flatbedding my 412 across country from Atlanta to Dallas. Filled it up....when I got it off the flat bed t o drive to dinner in Memphis.....it was down 1/8th tank!
I have seen nearly this much many times since...parking the beast at the airport while I was out of town. Now the cannister is back on....but evaporation loss can be huge. Anything that raises teh flashpoint but doesn't badly affect combustion is fine by me. Ray
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
The Pinz doesn't even have a vented gas tank or cap, it's designed with everything sealed for fording water over the fuel tank....The Pinz also has very low (for now) CR and will run on 85 octane fuel no problem.
My new Pinz engine has 9:1 CR and is 800cc larger than stock, weighing in at 3.3 Liters
My new Pinz engine has 9:1 CR and is 800cc larger than stock, weighing in at 3.3 Liters
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Stripped66
- Posts: 1904
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:01 am
That reminds me of my old Range Rover...about the same size tire in bias-ply Swamper LTB's, octagonal in shape at best, and between the tires and the riveted steel rims, I had to run 4 golf-balls in each wheel to serve as a dynamic balancer on the highwayMASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:The only radio I have are four 34X10.5 Swampers howling like mad!
Lotsa fun!-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Dang!...no gas tank vents ...then its just got to be just plain running better on the oxy blend. There was a good article in European car a few years back.....doing a wite up on the oxygenated fuels. It was a decent eye opener....and debunked a few of the conspiracy theories that it was going to kill engines and catalysts. Ray
...then its just got to be just plain running better on the oxy blend. There was a good article in European car a few years back.....doing a wite up on the oxygenated fuels. It was a decent eye opener....and debunked a few of the conspiracy theories that it was going to kill engines and catalysts. Ray-
farmer
- Posts: 2399
- Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:01 am
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schosh
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:46 am
Possible answer to a longtime riddle..
Ray,
You may have just answered a riddle I've been unable to solve for several years.
I have a fairly stock 66 ghia which was originally painted black. Several years ago I repainted it white, partly because of the desire to reduce the interior temps. I was mystified when my car started getting better milage after the paint job. I am guessing that "solar collector" trunk hood was heating the fuel tank and increasing the evaporation rate! ( i don't have any liner or carbet in the trunk)
Makes me wonder if insulating the fuel tank might increase milage.
Just another thing to conjure on whilst stuck in traffic.
Bill
You may have just answered a riddle I've been unable to solve for several years.
I have a fairly stock 66 ghia which was originally painted black. Several years ago I repainted it white, partly because of the desire to reduce the interior temps. I was mystified when my car started getting better milage after the paint job. I am guessing that "solar collector" trunk hood was heating the fuel tank and increasing the evaporation rate! ( i don't have any liner or carbet in the trunk)
Makes me wonder if insulating the fuel tank might increase milage.
Just another thing to conjure on whilst stuck in traffic.
Bill
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vw_chuck
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:04 pm
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
vw_chuck....in general....that equation is true.
When you substitute a fuel (alcohol in this case)....that has less potential combustion energy than gasoline....you generally need more ...to produce the same power that you were making with straight gasoline.
Where this is not always true.....is when that added alcohol actually keeps certain engines from wasting even more fuel in a different way.
The case for just how much alcohol to add....what kind of alcohol (methyl, ethyl or isopropyl)....what purity.....and hwat solution strength...and even at what stage to blend it (because it all give different results).....is still a raging debate in the petroleum industry and on capitol hill.
I say certain engines...because not all engines have the same fuel curves...temperature curves, gearing etc.
The two main things the alcohol is added for....is to (1) raise the temperature at which gasoline evaporates. It is intended....to slow tank evaporation and losses while fueling. That creates as much smog as tailpipe emmissions. It does that quite well. In certain older cars with vented tanks or leaking gas caps....it can help milage.
(2) It lowers the combustion flame temperature. That is mainly intended...to lower NOX emmissions. It does that decently also. How this can actually help a lot of vehicles get better milage.......is because in areas like Texas and Oklahoma...where we are already hitting 100 F ambient and average of 145 to 165 pavement temperature (which makes urban highway ambient temps in the concrete jungle...about 110-115 F )...........
............at these temperatures the ambient air temp sensors on modern cars (that do not ONLY operate during warm up).......will start giving the engine more fuel. The hot low density ambient air also drives cylinder head temps up (wherin the CHT can start lengthening injector pulse rates).....and the higher flame temperature from this ambient air changes the CO mixture...which is also being corrected for by 02 sensors.
That combined......eats fuel in hot weather. Add to that...the air conditioners in this part of the country are always in use from may through November.
In many cars.....just during hot weather, lower flame temps actually can save more fuel than the loss of energy from having alcohol in the fuel...wastes. The jury is still out...on wether 10% is to much. It takes a totally remapped fuel curve to use something like E-85.....and the additive packages to make them combust without engine damage....may be more toxic than the original MTBE. From what I see...and read.....E-85 (85% alcohol)...or flex fuel.......is more just a marketing thing. People like to be able to say look how "green" I am.
The emmissons from said ....E-85....are questioinable.......for exactly the reason you stated. The engine requires a vast quantity (comparatively) of this fuel to get usable power.
Also.....its a pipedream to use alcohol (in the current method of production) to "replace" gasoline.
Think ....200,000,000 million vehicles on alcohol.....all getting lower milage by roughly 25% (or more)...than they did on gasoline There is not enough acerage of arable land in this country to grow that much corn....and other crops to make that much alcohol. Not to mention the huge energy expenditure needed to run the distillation process.
Now......if they had a nuclear reactor.....powering plants that used ANY reactive biomass (paper pulp, grass clippings, old food...the list is huge).... you can get "some" percentage of alcohol from almost any dead plant tissue that is fermented. But lower levels of alcohol in that "mash"......get lower returns per BTU of heat put into the distillation process. The law of diminishing returns.
I think in the future.....electric cars could be the way. But....powerplants would be run on multifuel gas turbines (already doing it all over the world). These could use methane (from all the sewage plants)....low grade alcohols from disposable biomass etc....to generate the vast amount of gigawatts needed to fuel 200 to 300 million vehicles.
Sorry for the length. Ray
When you substitute a fuel (alcohol in this case)....that has less potential combustion energy than gasoline....you generally need more ...to produce the same power that you were making with straight gasoline.
Where this is not always true.....is when that added alcohol actually keeps certain engines from wasting even more fuel in a different way.
The case for just how much alcohol to add....what kind of alcohol (methyl, ethyl or isopropyl)....what purity.....and hwat solution strength...and even at what stage to blend it (because it all give different results).....is still a raging debate in the petroleum industry and on capitol hill.
I say certain engines...because not all engines have the same fuel curves...temperature curves, gearing etc.
The two main things the alcohol is added for....is to (1) raise the temperature at which gasoline evaporates. It is intended....to slow tank evaporation and losses while fueling. That creates as much smog as tailpipe emmissions. It does that quite well. In certain older cars with vented tanks or leaking gas caps....it can help milage.
(2) It lowers the combustion flame temperature. That is mainly intended...to lower NOX emmissions. It does that decently also. How this can actually help a lot of vehicles get better milage.......is because in areas like Texas and Oklahoma...where we are already hitting 100 F ambient and average of 145 to 165 pavement temperature (which makes urban highway ambient temps in the concrete jungle...about 110-115 F
).......................at these temperatures the ambient air temp sensors on modern cars (that do not ONLY operate during warm up).......will start giving the engine more fuel. The hot low density ambient air also drives cylinder head temps up (wherin the CHT can start lengthening injector pulse rates).....and the higher flame temperature from this ambient air changes the CO mixture...which is also being corrected for by 02 sensors.
That combined......eats fuel in hot weather. Add to that...the air conditioners in this part of the country are always in use from may through November.
In many cars.....just during hot weather, lower flame temps actually can save more fuel than the loss of energy from having alcohol in the fuel...wastes. The jury is still out...on wether 10% is to much. It takes a totally remapped fuel curve to use something like E-85.....and the additive packages to make them combust without engine damage....may be more toxic than the original MTBE. From what I see...and read.....E-85 (85% alcohol)...or flex fuel.......is more just a marketing thing. People like to be able to say look how "green" I am.
The emmissons from said ....E-85....are questioinable.......for exactly the reason you stated. The engine requires a vast quantity (comparatively) of this fuel to get usable power.
Also.....its a pipedream to use alcohol (in the current method of production) to "replace" gasoline.
Think ....200,000,000 million vehicles on alcohol.....all getting lower milage by roughly 25% (or more)...than they did on gasoline There is not enough acerage of arable land in this country to grow that much corn....and other crops to make that much alcohol. Not to mention the huge energy expenditure needed to run the distillation process.
Now......if they had a nuclear reactor.....powering plants that used ANY reactive biomass (paper pulp, grass clippings, old food...the list is huge).... you can get "some" percentage of alcohol from almost any dead plant tissue that is fermented. But lower levels of alcohol in that "mash"......get lower returns per BTU of heat put into the distillation process. The law of diminishing returns.
I think in the future.....electric cars could be the way. But....powerplants would be run on multifuel gas turbines (already doing it all over the world). These could use methane (from all the sewage plants)....low grade alcohols from disposable biomass etc....to generate the vast amount of gigawatts needed to fuel 200 to 300 million vehicles.
Sorry for the length. Ray
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Plastermaster
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:01 am
How does all this affect the ideal A/F ratio? Our engines do best with about 13.5: 1 IIRC, (something less than Stoich) If you are burning 10% alcohol, what A/F would give optimum power? Due to the different flash points, engine cooling, etc. 1 given ratio might not equally affect each area of concern such as optimum MPG, CHT, and HP. So, just generally speaking, what A/F ratio is better for 10% alcohol in the fuel?
Ron
Ron
Last edited by Plastermaster on Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
That...Ido not know. I was wondering that a while back. But....think of it this way: The ONLY way your engine knows wether it is stoic or close to stoic or not......is from the 02 sensor. As you said, it is going to give your system a setting that is slightly richer than ideal. Call this the factory setting.
It is going to try to adjust that setting to stay the same no matter what fuel is used. All it knows...is wether the ratio of oxygen left in the exhaust is normal or not.
What it does not know, is if the normal ratio it is maintaining....is giving you reduced power or not. The 02 is an absolute instrument of sorts. A corrective device. It is is going to do its best to send data that will cause your ECU to correct your fuel mixture to a setting that is standardized....however close to stoic that may be.
The only time the data from the 02 sensor is disregarded...and of course this depends on the system.....is when sensors like map and TPS say....."disregard that".....the right foot has the hammer down and we need enrichment for passing. But as far as I know...most 02 sensors also operate at that time...because moments of peak hp....require proper mixture as much or more than just cruising. Ray
It is going to try to adjust that setting to stay the same no matter what fuel is used. All it knows...is wether the ratio of oxygen left in the exhaust is normal or not.
What it does not know, is if the normal ratio it is maintaining....is giving you reduced power or not. The 02 is an absolute instrument of sorts. A corrective device. It is is going to do its best to send data that will cause your ECU to correct your fuel mixture to a setting that is standardized....however close to stoic that may be.
The only time the data from the 02 sensor is disregarded...and of course this depends on the system.....is when sensors like map and TPS say....."disregard that".....the right foot has the hammer down and we need enrichment for passing. But as far as I know...most 02 sensors also operate at that time...because moments of peak hp....require proper mixture as much or more than just cruising. Ray
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klatinn
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:56 pm
Hi,
There's one other thing to add to what raygreenwood said 2 posts up:
Alcohol has a higher H/C ratio than gasoline. This means the combustion products have a higher percentage of light molar mass gas (H2O) vs heavier molar mass gas (CO2). This means it creates higher pressure after combustion (more gas molecules in the same volume), even though it's BTU rating is lower. To maintain a certain speed on the highway requires a fixed amount of hp with the engine fairly throttled, depending on speed. If you create higher combustion pressures you can throttle more and use less fuel. Thermal BTU content is not the only thing that drives internal combustion engines.
Regards,
Klaus
There's one other thing to add to what raygreenwood said 2 posts up:
Alcohol has a higher H/C ratio than gasoline. This means the combustion products have a higher percentage of light molar mass gas (H2O) vs heavier molar mass gas (CO2). This means it creates higher pressure after combustion (more gas molecules in the same volume), even though it's BTU rating is lower. To maintain a certain speed on the highway requires a fixed amount of hp with the engine fairly throttled, depending on speed. If you create higher combustion pressures you can throttle more and use less fuel. Thermal BTU content is not the only thing that drives internal combustion engines.
Regards,
Klaus
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Plastermaster
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:01 am
Interesting point. But how does that pressure translate to power? BTU has a conversion factor to translate it into HP units. Also feild experience has shown alcohol to not take you as far down the road compared to gasoline (measured by volunm).
My question about the ideal ratio was in reference to using an A/F meter to help jetting carbs. Like Ray was pointing out, the O2 sensor sences when there is no o2 left in the exhaust, so that is what it is about, except for the other considerations such as CHT and what not. Its just with Alcohol the jetting required is different, since it is more resistant to being sucked through the jet. However when mixed with gas, it might not be directly proportional to the % of mix.
Ron
My question about the ideal ratio was in reference to using an A/F meter to help jetting carbs. Like Ray was pointing out, the O2 sensor sences when there is no o2 left in the exhaust, so that is what it is about, except for the other considerations such as CHT and what not. Its just with Alcohol the jetting required is different, since it is more resistant to being sucked through the jet. However when mixed with gas, it might not be directly proportional to the % of mix.
Ron
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11914
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am