When fitting wide wheels and tires to the front it usually limits steer angle because there isn't much room for the tires to turn. I would also quicken the steering of the car, those diamond shaped pieces are really cheap and they come helpful when learning how to slide the car around.
A car that has more slip angle at the rear than at the front is by definition oversteering, but the idea in drifting is to have a car that is controllable and fast when oversteering. I haven't read any books on the subject, maybe I should... I think that when being in a wide slide with a car, you would rather have a car that would slide less (=oversteer less/understeer more) than a car that would slide more (=oversteer more/understeer less). Sliding more would cause a spin.
Stiffening the front also causes less load transfer at the rear, thus improving the traction of the rear end.
Race/Drift Bug
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sinistervw
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:01 am
when you understeer and drift...you usually lose alot of stering control because the front tires are more apt to slide....now what you want. Drifting is all about a controlled over steer by using weight transfer and throttle control. A proper drift can be initiated and controlled all without using any sort of brake force.
with a drift you break the rear lose and use the front tires to "point" the direction of slide.
with a drift you break the rear lose and use the front tires to "point" the direction of slide.
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gcorrado
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:42 am
that makes a lot of sense... and incidentally sounds like a lot of fun.sinistervw wrote:Drifting is all about a controlled over steer by using weight transfer and throttle control.
unrelated question, is drifting RWD car with an open diff:
(a) difficult to make happen at all
(b) difficult to control once you get it going
(c) harder on the car/tires
(d) dangerous to point of being "beyond stupid"
or any combination of the above.
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sinistervw
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:01 am
Hmmm... never looked into it with a spool... I would think it would be harder to initiate posibly because the rear tires will chatter when trying to drift before the rear is broken loose....but once traction is broken loose i would speculate that it would be easier.
A spool will definitly be harder on tires.
Dangerouse beyond stupid....nah...unless you want to drive on public roads in the rain.
A spool will definitly be harder on tires.
Dangerouse beyond stupid....nah...unless you want to drive on public roads in the rain.
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kdf
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:37 am
Drifting with an open diff is like trying to accelerate out of corners with an open diff, it's inefficient (feels stupid 
) because you're just spinning one wheel and you dont have the same feeling for the traction limit when accelerating.
The question about spool and tire wear is one that gets different answers. I've heard that a car with a spool is a good school for you, you learn how to slide the car because the car won't go into corners otherwise. The one's I've talked with have made it seem like that they haven't driven the cars hard enough before the spool, and thus with the spool and harder driving the rear tires wear more (the rear tires will usually wear more than the fronts anyway in a rwd car).
I think that a spool will make the car understeer in turn entry, so it loads the front tires more and the front's will wear more when compared to a similar car with limited slip. Rear tires won't see the difference.
If the car is understeering and drifting, the front wheels are sliding, thus the car is in a 4 wheel drift. Shouldn't that be faster than just sliding with the rear wheels? Usually when cornering you don't use the steering wheel to control where you are going (you've decided your entry speed before going into the corner), you're just trying to keep the car pointed in the right direction. Just like controlling the throttle.
Some cars slide just if you lift the throttle a little when cornering. But I wouldn't enjoy throwing a car like this into corners at high speeds, knowing that a smallest error or trying to slow down would cause a spin, or in the worst case a crash. Usually you have to do something that you shouldn't have done when you put the car into a wide drift, to me this feels like forcing the car to do something that it shouldn't. Usually you don't have to do much, but that little bit counts (scandinavian flick = delicate weight transfer control
).
This summer I thought the brakes had gone in a bug we drove at the track. The car had a stock 1600 engine, was lowered and had two stock front swaybars in the front. I drove for 1.5 hours without brakes, just sliding the car into corners to slow it down. At the main straight you got to about 100mph, and by lifting a bit you slowed to 90mph and then entered the next corner, normally with brakes I had about 70-75 mph at entry. The car understeered slightly and I dont think I would have dared to slide into corners with a oversteering car. I did spin, 4 times (2 of them could have been saved with a faster steering).
Vw red mentioned caster, and I haven't thought of this before but it might work: With caster you get reverse jacking when turning the wheel (=oversteer). But when you put opposite lock, you will have the opposite, jacking (=understeer). This isn't much, but could be beneficial if you drift with a spool. Nascar and other circle track cars use jacking (and other asymmetric tricks) to get the cars to turn better in one direction than the other.
) because you're just spinning one wheel and you dont have the same feeling for the traction limit when accelerating. The question about spool and tire wear is one that gets different answers. I've heard that a car with a spool is a good school for you, you learn how to slide the car because the car won't go into corners otherwise. The one's I've talked with have made it seem like that they haven't driven the cars hard enough before the spool, and thus with the spool and harder driving the rear tires wear more (the rear tires will usually wear more than the fronts anyway in a rwd car).
I think that a spool will make the car understeer in turn entry, so it loads the front tires more and the front's will wear more when compared to a similar car with limited slip. Rear tires won't see the difference.
If the car is understeering and drifting, the front wheels are sliding, thus the car is in a 4 wheel drift. Shouldn't that be faster than just sliding with the rear wheels? Usually when cornering you don't use the steering wheel to control where you are going (you've decided your entry speed before going into the corner), you're just trying to keep the car pointed in the right direction. Just like controlling the throttle.
Some cars slide just if you lift the throttle a little when cornering. But I wouldn't enjoy throwing a car like this into corners at high speeds, knowing that a smallest error or trying to slow down would cause a spin, or in the worst case a crash. Usually you have to do something that you shouldn't have done when you put the car into a wide drift, to me this feels like forcing the car to do something that it shouldn't. Usually you don't have to do much, but that little bit counts (scandinavian flick = delicate weight transfer control
).This summer I thought the brakes had gone in a bug we drove at the track. The car had a stock 1600 engine, was lowered and had two stock front swaybars in the front. I drove for 1.5 hours without brakes, just sliding the car into corners to slow it down. At the main straight you got to about 100mph, and by lifting a bit you slowed to 90mph and then entered the next corner, normally with brakes I had about 70-75 mph at entry. The car understeered slightly and I dont think I would have dared to slide into corners with a oversteering car. I did spin, 4 times (2 of them could have been saved with a faster steering).
Vw red mentioned caster, and I haven't thought of this before but it might work: With caster you get reverse jacking when turning the wheel (=oversteer). But when you put opposite lock, you will have the opposite, jacking (=understeer). This isn't much, but could be beneficial if you drift with a spool. Nascar and other circle track cars use jacking (and other asymmetric tricks) to get the cars to turn better in one direction than the other.
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Charles R
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:01 am
I think it's important to note here that a 'drift' car setup, and a 'race' car setup are two different things. And there different goals for each. KDF, your answers seem to be geared to making a good race setup, and are pretty good for that purpose.
But winning drift competitions requires getting the tail of the car WAYYY out. I would say rear slip angles in the 35-40 degree range, or more if you can get away with it. For that purpose, a setup to promote oversteer helps you 'trigger' the slide more easily. And then lots of steering angle, and little front slip angle, helps you keep the front end rolling friction low to try to keep the front of the car leading the way down the track.
Very different from a race setup.
These guys even try to keep the car sideways as long as possible while going down the straight. While the speed they generate does make it seem like they are using more race-like setups, they are simply using momentum and an 'unstable' setup to provoke high angles, and throttle control to vary the rear grip to keep the tail out.
And yes, for that reason, an open diff would suck!
When I ran a welded diff in a front drive car, I learned a few quirks about it's handling. First was the entry understeer, far more severe than on a rear drive car, this understeer actually was a "you can't physically turn the wheel!" situation. Since the tires absolutely will not turn independently, the only way to turn is to cause one to lose grip and scrub/slide. (this is where the tire wear comes from) This is easier under power than it is under braking. So what you need to do in order to use this setup to go fast is a 'return to basics'. That is the classic, "brake in a straight line--off brake, on throttle--turn in-accelerate through apex---and exit".
Not a good setup for trailbraking at all.
But winning drift competitions requires getting the tail of the car WAYYY out. I would say rear slip angles in the 35-40 degree range, or more if you can get away with it. For that purpose, a setup to promote oversteer helps you 'trigger' the slide more easily. And then lots of steering angle, and little front slip angle, helps you keep the front end rolling friction low to try to keep the front of the car leading the way down the track.
Very different from a race setup.
These guys even try to keep the car sideways as long as possible while going down the straight. While the speed they generate does make it seem like they are using more race-like setups, they are simply using momentum and an 'unstable' setup to provoke high angles, and throttle control to vary the rear grip to keep the tail out.
And yes, for that reason, an open diff would suck!
When I ran a welded diff in a front drive car, I learned a few quirks about it's handling. First was the entry understeer, far more severe than on a rear drive car, this understeer actually was a "you can't physically turn the wheel!" situation. Since the tires absolutely will not turn independently, the only way to turn is to cause one to lose grip and scrub/slide. (this is where the tire wear comes from) This is easier under power than it is under braking. So what you need to do in order to use this setup to go fast is a 'return to basics'. That is the classic, "brake in a straight line--off brake, on throttle--turn in-accelerate through apex---and exit".
Not a good setup for trailbraking at all.
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kdf
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:37 am
Naah, I've been thinking only on a setup for drifting. Maybe I should have clarified it earlier.
I just can't see how a oversteering setup would be beneficial or faster in drifting.
To quickly initiate the drift, you need low polar moment of inertia.
To promote oversteer you don't need a oversteering setup, scandinavian flick, pulling the handbrake or any other way to upset the balance of the car would do trick.
A drifting car has to be fast. In the first heat every car run solo, but the semi-finals and finals are run as a two car battle, with each of the cars taking turns to lead. A faster car will look better in the battle.
I think that you might be into something with the front end rolling friction... I'll have to think this over.
I just can't see how a oversteering setup would be beneficial or faster in drifting.
To quickly initiate the drift, you need low polar moment of inertia.
To promote oversteer you don't need a oversteering setup, scandinavian flick, pulling the handbrake or any other way to upset the balance of the car would do trick.
A drifting car has to be fast. In the first heat every car run solo, but the semi-finals and finals are run as a two car battle, with each of the cars taking turns to lead. A faster car will look better in the battle.
I think that you might be into something with the front end rolling friction... I'll have to think this over.
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Charles R
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:01 am
Now see, a lot of drift guys like higher polar inertia. that's one of the reasons the longer cars, like the 240sx's and RX7's, are more popular than shorter ones like the billiantly handling Miata. The Toyota AE86 is only popular because of the initial D series.
Anyways, they like the long cars because the 'pendulum' swings slower and that makes it easier to control in the slide. Starting the slide is the easy part. Remember it's not time, but style that wins these things. They are judged by how far they get the tail out first, and raw speed second:D
Anyways, they like the long cars because the 'pendulum' swings slower and that makes it easier to control in the slide. Starting the slide is the easy part. Remember it's not time, but style that wins these things. They are judged by how far they get the tail out first, and raw speed second:D
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kdf
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:37 am
I've thought that miatas and other small cars dont look as good as a bigger and longer car when drifting. Especially if a big lexus is drifting besides a miata, the miata doesn't look very cool. A car that acts as a big pendulum is nice and easy, but I dont see how it would make the car any faster. Also, a miata has a dynamic index (=how big a pendulum the car is compared to the wheelbase) quite close to a 240sx because the miata has a shorter wheelbase.
I don't mean to argue, I'm just wondering what I'm thinking wrong...
Assume a car that has optimum grip at 5 degrees of slip.
Neutral car: 5 degrees of slip at the front and 5 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. When drifting the rear end loses lateral traction, and the front slip angle has to decrease to keep the car neutral. At drifting the car would have less than 5 degrees of slip at the front.
Oversteering car: 4 degrees of slip at the front and 6 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. At drifting the car would have less than 4 degrees of slip at the front.
Oversteering car: 6 degrees of slip at the front and 4 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. At drifting the car would have less than 6 degrees of slip at the front.
A car that has better slip angle at the front should be faster when drifting, and going towards oversteer doesn't seem like the right way to go.
Rolling resistance of the front could be a factor if it was different on left and right on the front compared to the rear... There is still so much lateral force generated by the rear wheels, that the rolling resistance needed at the front to balance that would be quite significant.
I disagree that speed isn't a factor, if you are faster and leave your opponent far behind it leaves a message that the other guy isn't as skilled or as fast as you are.
I don't mean to argue, I'm just wondering what I'm thinking wrong...
Assume a car that has optimum grip at 5 degrees of slip.
Neutral car: 5 degrees of slip at the front and 5 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. When drifting the rear end loses lateral traction, and the front slip angle has to decrease to keep the car neutral. At drifting the car would have less than 5 degrees of slip at the front.
Oversteering car: 4 degrees of slip at the front and 6 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. At drifting the car would have less than 4 degrees of slip at the front.
Oversteering car: 6 degrees of slip at the front and 4 degrees of slip at the rear when cornering normally. At drifting the car would have less than 6 degrees of slip at the front.
A car that has better slip angle at the front should be faster when drifting, and going towards oversteer doesn't seem like the right way to go.
Rolling resistance of the front could be a factor if it was different on left and right on the front compared to the rear... There is still so much lateral force generated by the rear wheels, that the rolling resistance needed at the front to balance that would be quite significant.
I disagree that speed isn't a factor, if you are faster and leave your opponent far behind it leaves a message that the other guy isn't as skilled or as fast as you are.
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gcorrado
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:42 am
well remember that drifting is not the fastest way around the track. it you wanted to be fastest around the track, you would set your car up close to neutral and drive right on the edge (not beyond) what your tires can tolerate.
drifting is about style, and showing that you can keep control even of the car even when by conventional terms you're past the edge. so a car that's set up for drifting will not be the fastest car, it will be easy to get into a slide, but once i will do so in a way that the driver feels comfortable controling.
think about it this way:
understeer - street car - minimal drama
neutral - race car - work all the tires, go faster, disaster if you lose control
oversteer - drift car - less fast, but fun and looks cool.
drifting is about style, and showing that you can keep control even of the car even when by conventional terms you're past the edge. so a car that's set up for drifting will not be the fastest car, it will be easy to get into a slide, but once i will do so in a way that the driver feels comfortable controling.
think about it this way:
understeer - street car - minimal drama
neutral - race car - work all the tires, go faster, disaster if you lose control
oversteer - drift car - less fast, but fun and looks cool.
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FITNESSFORYOUTOO
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:34 pm
One point you all missed is to drift in a bug you are going to need at least 300 HP from a turbo motor that spools real fast and a locked diff or spool. Its all about the HP I once had some radial tires on my 425 hp bug but on the motor only with about 352 HP and I could spin them in every gear. I once left about 300 feet of rubber on the freeway nailing it at 65 mph.
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Kelley
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:01 am
Why drift when you can autocross? Pretty much the same thing, IMO.
In car video,,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE8l2Pemn1E
In car video,,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE8l2Pemn1E
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Ozzie
- Posts: 532
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:16 pm
There's the voice of logic & wisdom.bigGreen wrote:Unless your real name is Ari Vatanen or maybe Walter Rohl, you'll probably find it close to impossible to drift any rear engine car...
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
Ben Franklin
Ben Franklin
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Ghia Nut
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:01 am
get a brace/traction bar. I got one from Berg but be carefull as it will slide off. Next YOU NEED A DEEP SUMP!
This will alow your oiling/cooling system to keep in operation while sideways. It is a must in this instance as your oil light will come on and your bearings will run dry while the oil is sloshed to one side.
This will alow your oiling/cooling system to keep in operation while sideways. It is a must in this instance as your oil light will come on and your bearings will run dry while the oil is sloshed to one side.