QSC "2.4L" Waterboxer pistons

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon May 07, 2007 4:00 pm

I was shocked to find that S&S lists a TURBO vanagon header for the 1.9 and 2.1. (different)

OTOH this could mean "turbo" muffler or something... but I doubt it.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:36 pm

I didn't see that in their online catalog. Probably just a "turbo" muffler, though. Got a link?

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:53 pm

My bad, it's listed under "...mufflers and megaphones", so it's just the turbo muffler for the ex they sell, listed separately.

I knew that would be too easy.

I'm sorta looking forward to dissection of the mid engined setup, looks like modding to a T4 (for mid engine use) would only involve a few cuts/rotates, T4 stubs, and perhaps a couple more 90 degree bends, preserving the basic layout, and of course WBX in a buggy would only need rotating the ex flanges...

http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=374

Of course you would need room over the tranny...
(Have to look under My Vanagon when it dries out...raining cats, dogs, sheep, and cows here ATM)

You KNOW things are bad when your buddys Phillipina wife says "I have never seen it rain so hard in my life..."

It really KNOWS how to rain here in Dallas, it just forgets for extended periods sometimes...

I'm really expecting simply to have it be a source of mandrel bent tubing and a 4>1 collector, no more.

(I'd really like to do a true tri-Y for the low end)

wellington · Post by **wellington** » Wed May 09, 2007 10:32 am

Piledriver, can you verify my thinking, the AA measure 48cc with a 35.75mm pin height, the 96mm measure 48cc with a 35.95mm pin height. So are the 96mm not giving a even less desirable compression than the 95.5mm undesirable compression ratio, assuming just bolting them on a 76mm stroke with stock length rods.
As far as a turbo goes, why not just use the stock exhaust, 2.1 right after the cast collector?
I don't know a lot about turbos, but I do know exhaust is less critical, as it it doesn't need to be tuned.
If someone can offer a turbo kit suited to the wasser I'm interested.

Post by **Piledriver** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:09 am

AFAIK, the deck on both of those pistons is the same, as is the dish.

(Please correct me if I am wrong, my calipers say they are, but my measurements could be off a thou or 2)

In all probability, the the 96s are probably the .5mm oversize version of the same Cheng Shin piston/liner. (Have to eyeball a QSC to verify the casting mark inside the piston, QSC/AA don't actually MAKE them, they have them made)

They are both even coated..

As to the exhaust, the 2.1 stock setup would work ~OK, but to keep the tubing volume/lengths down on both intake and exhaust , something different might be indicated. The stock setup IS very good quality tubing... The GT17 might not care.

The exhaust is a minor side project, it will likely get cut up and turned into a T4 header.

akciddento · Post by **akciddento** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:40 pm

i use a stock 2.1 exhaust on the junkyard turbo van i built up with an extra section of stainless tube bent up into the engine bay to mount the turbo on, really quick painless process. i had tried to fab up something different but in a van with the rear support bar it starts getting complicated.

i've just started the build on the new turbo engine (pic in the weblog at akciddento.com) and i think we'll be usingthe same again. stock exhaust to the cast elbow and then two bends in some stainless to get the turbo in the right place...

Post by **Piledriver** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:46 pm

Yeah, by the time I put in the chargecooler, the extra run length might be a feature.
(probably be the tube type, for packaging reasons)

(I was just throwing out an idea for comment with the mid engine ex setup, really, but it would likely clear the crossbar with zero issues, as it goes the opposite way)

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:22 am

You guys will be pleased to know that better intelligence is on its way; I'm gonna order a set of these QSC P&L's, so I'll mike and cc them for the archives.

I'm gonna use the 2.1 case and crank I have, but put in 5.5" Scat rods, machined for 24mm pins, and shave the tops to get zero deck (not counting the seal ring to set the squish at 1mm). Should be about a 1.75mm haircut, and I'm estimating that will leave 39cc in the dish.

I had to look at the QSC site again to make sure those pistons aren't already ceramic coated; they're not. It would be a shame to just face it off. If I can find a local operator, I'll get the tops ceramic'ed after they get their haircuts.

My figures say that combo will get me a 2200 cc with 9.975:1 static CR.

I think I'll use the CB-Eagle 2254 hydro cam (Adv.Duration 308/ @050" 236/ L on cam .319"). I'm open to going with solid lifters, though, so if any of you have a dream cam to go in such a beast, pipe up!

One problem I face is that this case had a +2 cam gear in it. I have to see if there is a bolt-on 3-rivet gear available in oversizes. Any knowledge of a source? I haven't asked at CB yet, but my guess is they'll only have std. gears.

That should make for a real torquey motor, with the high CR and longer rods. Rod/stroke is 1.84.

I'll also get some new 1.25 rockers for it. That'll give .398" valve lift. My machinist has the heads, which are VW but pretty good already, but he's looking into a 41mm intake valve, because he can enlarge the seat ID easily that much. Clean up and match the ports, etc.

I may sell my existing 2.2 to another van owner, so if he wants to keep my old S&S header, I'll order up a new one, ceramic coated.

Hey, akciddento Dan, are you still looking for some MV pistons? I have a low-miles set, OEM Mahles. Looks like on your blog you got a set of the Cofaps. If so, you're gonna find the deck 1mm too low if you use stock rods on a 2.1 crank. But some folks are hankerin' to play with some of the DJ pistons, here stateside. Maybe we can work out a trade: some US schwag for some of that Euro schwag, for just the cost of shipping? Move some of your tee-shirts stateside, too?

Oh, and which Scat rods did you get, that you had the wrists bored out? I want those.

Post by **Piledriver** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:28 am

The CB Unitech+ could have ~easily have been offset to .040" when going 24mm pin... Tons of meat around the pin.

I'm thinking about buying another set and having them done and using the present ones in a T4.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:45 am

Yeah, I would use those, but they only come in 5.4".

Post by **Piledriver** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:01 pm

tencentlife wrote:Yeah, I would use those, but they only come in 5.4".

The AA's and QSCs have coated SKIRTS (Anti-scuff) so nothing wasted trimming for deck.

If you are running NA, you can buy the CBC1 coating and apply it yourself.

The CBC2/CBX may be different, or require different prep or multiple coats, they don't say, also waterbased, cures at slightly higher temp, but they don't sell it retail or recommend it for home use for some reason.

Note they say do NOT bead blast, use fine sand/Aluminum oxide media only.

http://www.engineceramics.com
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/Engine.htm

(The black satin coating for the exhaust supposedly rocks as well...)

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Thu May 10, 2007 6:12 pm

Yeah, I didn't want to buy coated tops only to face them off. But I already looked and the tops are plain, so no prob.

Didn't know I could do my own coatings. That's awesome. Thanks for the links.

I think I might need a bigger oven, though. Unless I build an exhaust in smaller pieces.

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri May 11, 2007 3:18 am

Engine ceramic is a place to do it FOR you, the guy seems decent, and is a VW type.

The other place is a coating MFR, and they both sell some material retail IIRC..

Most of the really good coatings require curing in an N2 purged oven at high temps...
Th oil shedding stuff (under piston) is like that.

I'm going to have my chambers/ex ports and crowns CBX coated, and do the bearings etc myself.

(I have ~ 3 motors worth of bearings sitting here to coat for upcoming projects for example)

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Fri May 11, 2007 7:52 am

Yeah, I've heard Stan Wilder is a good guy to deal with. But for me, shipping heavy metal parts around the country eats up money pretty quick, so for me to ship something it needs to be a vital service I can't get in NM. Albuquerque is a fabricator's paradise, though, due to the business from Sandia Labs, so I'm sure once I start looking I'll turn up a coatings specialist locally (local being within a 3 hour radius, such is NM). But it's nice to know I could do some of the small parts at home, and save some money.

Last year I had to ship a case to Rimco in CA for an align bore, so I threw in the heads, too. Coulda got the head work done locally, so that was stupid on my part, I knew better, and my local machinist had to finish up Rimco's work anyway, due to poor communication. Live and learn. I only know of one other shop in the US that will do a wbx align-bore, though, and that's Boston Bob Donalds, even farther away. For sure there's no one in the SW. The two-way crating and shipping cost almost as much as the work. For the total cost, I might have just got another case, although wbx cores are few around here. Luckily, these things rarely need align-boring; this one needed it done because it had already been done before and the job wasn't good.

So now I'm buying up cores when I can find them, so I'm not stuck with having to make a marginal one work.

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:42 am

Getting closer to ordering some parts for my upgrade.. looks like 2.2 is the simpler method and cheaper, but with the dollar a bit weak to the pound it would be worth ordering the stroked crank...

But as I am syicking with the euro 1.9 DG carb and manifold 2.2 will be fine.. cam still seems to present a problem.. looking at the std 2.1 cam, its pretty good and once the factoring for the type 1 lifters on a type 1 cam are taken account of, the difference in specs to type 1 wouldnt be that much different... still considering the web 218/119 (IIRC) with type lifters, this seems to offer the low and mid range I am after, which the larger cc and "restricted" intake set up would require.. still, any thoughts appreciated..

So anyone got a set of the chinese piston sets in there hands? Or perhaps I should ask GW for any of there old stock wiseco (I heard they have had to drop the CR on them? no problem for us we still have 98/99 ron fuel easy..)