Engine/Oil Help

[Marc]

The intake port gaskets should never be recycled, but the little ones on the preheat flanges aren't so vital (even if they leak a little, it won't affect the operation of the engine - but it will gas you if the heat is on).

[Jim Ed]

I have a 1973 Beetle with a stock 1600cc D.P. Type 1 engine.
When it is under 85F I use Valvoline Racing VR1 10W30 and when it is over 85F I use Valvoline Racing VR1 20W50.
I change the oil at least every 1000 miles or every 3 months whichever comes first.

So I'll start off by saying I have made use of the search feature here and other sites and I just can't get the answer I am looking for.

I have just completed about 90% of my build on a 68 bug and can now drive the car while I complete the rest. The problem is when the engine gets hot, I have what seems to be no oil pressure either on the gauge or idiot light. I'm using 10/40 oil with the zinc adititive for now. The engine was rebuild new by a reputable engine builder about 10 yrs ago and stored in a bag in the garage. It's a dual relief 1600 with single port heads, straight cut time gears and I'm told a 110 cam. It has a pict 31 carb and a 009 distributor. Also I used an electric fuel pump under the tank to supply the gas. And even though it drives great and has lots of power, after a long drive it will make a grawl sound when I turn it off and theres the smell of gas.

It has a dog house style oil cooler with a home built hoover mod. And all the engine cooling tins are in place and are new along with all the engine seals.

1. Would using 20/50 instead of 10/40 make a differance with the oil issue.
2. Would a higher pressure oil pump and the 10/40 be a better choice.

The plan for this car is to be a daily driver and right now it scares me a little that I could be damaging the new engine. Like I stated first I have read every thing I could find about oil types, pressure issues and coolers and I just cant find the answer. I hope that this post will answer my question and fix my problem and possibly help many other people with similar issues.

[cvbug]

[quote="Jim Ed"]I have a 1973 Beetle with a stock 1600cc D.P. Type 1 engine.
When it is under 85F I use Valvoline Racing VR1 10W30 and when it is over 85F I use Valvoline Racing VR1 20W50.
I change the oil at least every 1000 miles or every 3 months whichever comes first.

I am really thinking about the 20/50 the more i drive the car. I think the weather here is SOCAL would be fine for 20/50 all year round.

I thought I might pull my engine out and remove the oil cooler to see if oil is going through it. Maybe there could be a problem there. I don't know, but it couldn't hurt to take a look. At the same time I'll try and roto-rooter the heat riser again for good measures. Talking with a guy at VEEPARTS, he said maybe the timing is still off causing it to run hot. I may change it back to the vacuum advance disributor and see if the motor runs any different.

[Piledriver]

Have you stuck a $5 gauge on it to see if is a real problem, yet?

Rotella 40 has plenty of zinc and is cheap as chips.

[Jim Ed]

Have you stuck a $5 gauge on it to see if is a real problem, yet?

Rotella 40 has plenty of zinc and is cheap as chips.

Is that Rotella T1 SAE 40 ?
What about Rotella 15 W40?
Is it high zinc too?

Is there a good high zinc Rotella for cold weather?
If so what is the name/description?
TIA!

[ainokea]

You say this engine was built and stored for ten years, by a reputable engine builder. From the posted picture it looks like it was stored last week. nice n' clean. You also mention that the oil gauge and idiot light are indicating no oil pressure. Is that correct? There is one thing that caught my eye in the picture of the oil pump. sealer squished out between the pump body and the case. If by chance the builder got the
two pump gaskets installed in the wrong order, it could cause a problem similar to yours. The oil pump must be installed with the thick gasket installed between the pump and the case. the thin gasket will be between the pump cover and the pump. I have seen this mistake
on several engines through the years.

Ainokea

[weldvair]

NO OVER THE COUNTER oil is suitable for the push rod vw engines. I use Brad Penn oil that I get
from JEGS.

Look up (Bob is the oil man) to get educated on modern oil.......if the oil is labeled SN or SM
do not use.

Don

[Piledriver]

NO OVER THE COUNTER oil is suitable for the push rod vw engines. I use Brad Penn oil that I get
from JEGS.

Look up (Bob is the oil man) to get educated on modern oil.......if the oil is labeled SN or SM
do not use.

Don

Not true, or at least very misleading propaganda....
I doubt anyone at Brad Penn would dare even infer that in public, although they and their dealers would like everyone to believe.
It is great oil, but in my personal experience, the 20W50 runs like water by oil change time, and I wasn't changing it at 12K like I do the Rotella T6.
...That and my hot oil pressure is better with T6 5W40 than the 20W50 Brad Penn after a month or so.

No non "energy conserving" grade of oil (anything (X)w40 and up, or without an API "starburst") is required to use the reduced zinc/phos levels. SOME oil manufactures choose to do so anyway, Castrol does anyway to force folks to buy the Syntec etc.

Shell Rotella single grade (HD) is ~1400 ppm zinc, as is the Rotella-T (now called T6) 5w40 synthetic.
The 15W40 dino is ~1100 PPM and thus marginal for ~dual springs on an aggressive flat tappet cam.

Valvoline VR1 is available in about any grade you can think of, and is ~14-1500 PPM zinc.
That and Shell Rotella (all flavors) are available at almost all auto parts stores, and the Rotella is carried by Wally World.

Mobil1 Turbo Diesel Truck (AKA Delvac1) is available most places as well, and works just peachy.

API SN actually undid some of the stupid from the SM spec, as it was even hurting OEMs.

[weldvair]

I read that Vavoline racing oil is too low in detergents for street use & I am apprehensive about switching to syn oil.

I am comfortable using Brad Penn 30 wt oil.....if I am wrong please ad vise.

Thanks Don

[Piledriver]

You have to research exactly the oil you are using...
Brad Penn straight 30 may or may not be, depends on the version...
Brad Penn makes unsafe "modern" oils too.
A lot of companies make cheap "SA" grade additive free oil that is not even safe to run in a lawnmower.
(Briggs and Stratton/Tecumseh motors et al have flat tappets and require high ZDDP oil too)

The BP SAE30 "break in" oil also has ~zero detergents and plenty of zinc.
It should not be used for extended periods, but you can drain it and reuse it in another build.

The "safe" Brad Penn is labeled "semi-synthetic racing oil" or some such.
(Not sure abut the break in oil, never tried it as I had to buy a case)

Valvoline VR-1 "NSL" (not street legal") Is a one race weekend/500 mile racing oil with ~no detergents, and would probably make a fine break in oil. Order at any auto parts store.

The regular VR-1 is rated SM or SN, and thus has plenty of detergent.
Despite the SM or SN rating, as a "heavy duty" oil it is not required to have low zinc.

Of course Castrol GTX is also a heavy duty oil, but Castrol decided that 800ppm zinc was plenty.
That little non-advertised change wiped more than one cam, including two of mine back before folks knew what was going on.

The big diesels have the same sort of flat cam issues and rebuilds start at $50K.
I have been running common HD "commercial" (Diesel) rated oils since the low zinc BS started.
They also have killer anti-foam packages like racing oils, as common rail injector pumps hate air.

Commercial oils are not ideal for break in due to high detergent, but fine afterwards, and generally available anywhere.
Some have more zinc than others, but AFAIK all are at least 1100 ppm zinc and ~1000 phos (zddp has more zinc than phos, so you can simply estimate zddp levels by zinc %)

1100 ppm zinc is generally considered marginal, but would likely be fine for a near stocker w/single springs.
I would not use it on dual springs, esp for break in, there are better choices that cost no more.

The Shell Rotella-T 5w40 syn and the Rotella HD 30 and HD40 are 1400 PPM zinc, and also available ~anywhere.
The straight weight grades are dirt cheap, and your engine was designed for them after all.
They do not "thin out" in use as oils with cheap multigrade additive packages tend to do.

Note "HD" can also mean high detergent, rather than "heavy duty"

[aussiebug]

CVbug

You'll need to remove the inlet manifold and heat riser to drill out the fittings on the exhaust manifold (check before you start drilling just in case they are already drilled into the exhaust). Might as well use new gaskets whilst you have it off. Usually a 1/4 inch drill bit is enough, especially in your warmer climate (San Diego area). In fact in warmer climates it was common to find that one of the gaskets on the heat riser would be a small-hole gasket with about 1/4inch hole in it, to reduce the exhaust gas flow a little. It only needs to warm the area under the carb to above freezing temps, so WARM is fine...HOT is not necessary.

As Marc says above, using a VW air cleaner helps too - they have the warm-air intake for the snorkel, and also have the 3 inch "ram" tube above the carb inlet to catch the stand-off fuel fog which occurs above all open-throat style carbs at higher speeds.

It sounds to me like you do not have an overheating problem - you say you can hold on to the dipstick just fine after a run.

A 20w50 oil is just fine for your climate. As the chart above shows, it's good for all temps above -10c or 15f. I live in Adelaide Australia (similar climate to San Diego) and have used Casrol 20w50 (not GTX) for 30 years, and still have the original 1500 engine in my 1970 bug - 248,000 miles on it with just one rebuild. As noted above, it's a good idea to use an oil with a useful amount of ZDDP (zinc) in it, which is getting harder as it's a pollutant and they are reducing the amount in most oils, since engine builders are now building engine with roller tappets which don't need the ZDDP anti-scuff protection. ZDDP is sacrificial so you need enough in the fresh oil to last until the oil change - higher than 800ppm is usually recommended. As Pliedriver says above, 1400ppm is good. Castrol Edge oils have good levels of ZDDP, or you can add a little ZDDP additive (don't overdo it). Keeping your oil changes to 3000 miles is good too - extending the oil change will risk running low on ZDDP.

Love the nice clean engine.
Hate the 36hp style shroud - sure hope it DOES have some air guides inside it (many don't) - without those, the air just spills around inside - inefficient cooling. VW spend a $million in 69-70 (when that was HUGE bucks) designing the doghouse fan shroud for the 1600 twin port engine, and those shrouds have several guide vanes inside to direct the air smoothly to where it's needed.

[weldvair]

I will use Brad Penn 30 for break in.......new rings. Once the rings seat what oil would
you recommend I use? Can I go syn at 84,000 miles.(this scares me because I am afraid
of oil leaks)

Thanks for your advice......Don

[aussiebug]

I will use Brad Penn 30 for break in.......new rings.

Why? I've never felt the need to use a specialised "break in" oil. The Owner's Manuals do not recommend break in oils - they all say "choose your brand of oil and stick to it. Quote "the quality of oil produced by reputable firms is so good that the choice of brand is left entirely up to you" unquote.

They then recommend the FIRST change of oil (new car) at either 300 miles (1964 1200 Owner's Manual) or 600 miles (1970 1500 Owner's Manual) and from then on, every 3000 miles/5000km. So that would be a good plan with new rings - either 300 or 600 miles and then every 3000 miles.

All the owner's manuals say that you should use detergent oils; they state either "HD" [high detergent], or "for service MS" which is a later term meaning essentially the same thing. So you should never use non-detergent oils in the VW engine...doing that risks crud building up on the insides of the case and eventually pieces breaking off and blocking oil passages. Detergent oils keep the crud in the oil (so it does look black sooner than non-detergent oils) but then all the crud comes out with every oil change, and the inside of the case stays free of crud build-up.

I don't understand Piledrivers comment "Commercial oils are not ideal for break in due to high detergent" - that implies it's better for any break-in products so drop to the bottom of the case and stay there rather than get flushed out with the initial (low miles) oil change period. Remember that the Owner's Manuals ALL, repeat ALL say that you should use a high detergent oil. All modern 4 stroke engine oils have good levels of detergents.

As noted above though, levels of ZDDP (anti-scuff agent - needed by flat tappet engines) is dropping, so you need to choose and oil with a good level of that if you can find it, or else add a little ZZDP additive.

Once the rings seat what oil would
you recommend I use? Can I go syn at 84,000 miles.(this scares me because I am afraid
of oil leaks)

Thanks for your advice......Don

You CAN use synthetic oils, but why would you? They were originally developed to cope with the VERY high temps experienced by turbo charger bearings, so they are commonly called "heat resistant" which is a misnomer - they "maintain their stability under high temps", would be a better term. Sure they work very well in the VW engine, and they will carry heat to the oil cooler just like mineral oils do, but they are expensive and the VW engine just does not get hot enough to make good use of their high-temp stability. And since most VW engines have no oil filter, and the slots behind the engine pulley pull in fresh (unfiltered) air for crankcase ventilation - you can't extend the oil change period as the oil will still get dirty, so they just cost more for no real benefit. Another concern I have with synthetics is that they are built for modern engines which mostly come with roller tappets these days, so a lot of them don't have much ZDDP in them. As for the "leaking" issue - NO bug engine should leak any oil - synthetic or mineral, if it's been built right and is maintained right.

. So Valvoline VR1 SM or SN oil would be good.
. Castrol Edge 25w50 would work (I use it). Suitable for flat tappet engines, has a good viscosity range, rated SG/CD (that's both Spark ignition (SG) and Compression ignition (CD) engines) which means good levels of detergent, and the Castrol Technical dept tells me they have good levels of ZDDP. The 25w50 numbers mean that it's suitable for ambient temps from -15c (5f) to over 40c (over 110f).
. Some folks find that Shell Rotella works well.
. And you might like to check this out - Penrite is an Aussie brand (available in the USA) which makes SPECIFIC oils for older engines (as well as modern engines).
Classic Light http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.p ... oducts=657 This one is quite specific about high ZDDP levels, and compatibility with engines designed to work with straight 30 engine oils (for the sceptics). There is a location finder on that web site for suppliers in the USA and other countries.
Pentire HPR 30 is another excellent alternative - it has 1600ppm ZDDP. Here's the link http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.p ... products=4
Both HPR30 and Classic Light are specifically recommended for the VW bug engine. How many other oil manufacturers bother to list cars that old???

Hope that helps.

[Piledriver]

Explanation:
"Diesel" (AKA "commercial" oils) have VERY high levels of detergents, in order to last 12K+ miles and to keep gobs of soot suspended. They also have a wild antifoaming additive like good racing oil, as common rail diesels abhor air bubbles in the 20Kpsi pump..(i suspect it's the same stuff that makes gas-X work... silicone oil)

True break in oils and true racing oils have high levels of ZDDP and low or no detergents, which hinder the protective film buildup ZDDP creates.

Also, AFAIK no one has flame hardened/carburized cam/lifters in over a decade, and most modern oils have ~half the ZDDP they once did. (there are noted exceptions, well documented in this and other threads)

If the engine is a true stocker it probably doesn't matter a rats ass as long as the zinc is >~1100ppm, even though that's STILL lower than the typical HD single grades level from the days of yore.

Rotella HD30 or HD40 are ~1400 ppm zinc FWIW, commonly available in the US, and cheap as chips.
Perfectly fine for break in on a stocker, or even every day use.

I concur that if you have a stock T1 with no sand seal, no oil filter, and no deep sump expensive oil is ~insane.
3K mile oil changes are not just a good suggestion on a stock T1.
(On ~anything else they are a pure waste of money that can increase wear)

OTOH, absolutely nothing wrong with the BP 30 break in special stuff if $ are no issue, just save it and reuse it.

[aussiebug]

Thanks Pliedriver,

So what I think you are saying is that you are against the oils with VERY high levels of detergent for breaking in, but some detergent is OK.

I can live with that statement.

It's certainly a problem when folks read the old manuals etc taking about HD and MS (terms which aren't used these days), and translating modern oil terminology to suit our older engines. That's why I put the link to Penrite Oils in there - they are quite specific about the contents of there oils and WHY they work.

I've used them in the past with great success, but when running a trucking business as I did until recently, I needed oils which were readily available in any country town anywhere in Aus so have been using Castrol oils (RX Super for the trucks and my Diesel Isuzu, 20w50 for the bugs) for the last 10 years. I really like the Penrite oils though - they are a great company trying to cater for ALL sections of the lubrication market and have really done there homework on both modern and classic cars. Much less jargon and much more specifics in their descriptions, and their oils really are good quality. And they have at least 13 outlets across the USA, so even you guys can try them now.