hey, i did see the bug with the vette V8 in the front. it was wild for sure. my favorite though was this really sexy buss right in the middle, orange i think, and it had a cool front bench seat set-up that allowed the bench(all the wasy across--not a 3/2 setup) to be reclined a bit. also really cool was the jacked up syncro two rooms over...not to mention every other cherry -poopin car. it really was impressive to see what a real restoration looks like. the job i did on my bus has flaws, unoticeable to some, but if it was out on the floor there, people would go "ouch, look at that....or "hey there's a drip or crack or chicp or etc.."
my favorite car title was "money not an option" yeah, that's about right.
as for the good bus for 2-3 K and then 4-5 K of work...i did see on eout in the parkinglot that looked solid for 3K. it had all of the external runnig gear mods: albetross, buss boys rear, pop-outs , safari, rear pop-out, disc brakes F, and what looked to be minimal rust.
but hey, once i dove in with the torch to my rig we stood back , went whoa! and trhen just sandblasted the whole fucking thing. poop, i still have the sand coming out of my heating ducts slowly but surely.
about the bay/splitty..just playin' 2. i just put so much work in to mine i like to think i have something cool, that's all.
let me know if you want a disc of pictures from the meet though, i'll gladly send them.
positive bus improvements
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bussta
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
PILLOW!!!!!!
do you really run 4500 RPM on the freeway for extended time? i really6 don't know much about the limitations of the 73 Bug engine i have, but i haven't run over 4K on the freway . can we??
do you really run 4500 RPM on the freeway for extended time? i really6 don't know much about the limitations of the 73 Bug engine i have, but i haven't run over 4K on the freway . can we??
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type4bay74
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
Yep Im a do-it-yourselfer too, my dads got the welders and his own maching shop. Bay window are so abundant as compared to a split and are usually in better shape and I love the type 4 engine. I have plans to make a custom bay because nobody does it. thats why we all have vw's cause we dont want to fall into the camaro, muscle car, or, rice rocket trend
To me the bay is the VW stepchild, bay were the last of the true aircooled chapter in VW history--not including the vanagon.
It lacks the charcter of the split but the technical aspect of it compared to its older brothers and sisters is remarkable for the time. someday ill have a split but till then im going to make a bitchin bay.
Heres a crazy website, check out what the brits are doing to their bays, take it easy.
www.baysplits.com
To me the bay is the VW stepchild, bay were the last of the true aircooled chapter in VW history--not including the vanagon.
It lacks the charcter of the split but the technical aspect of it compared to its older brothers and sisters is remarkable for the time. someday ill have a split but till then im going to make a bitchin bay.
Heres a crazy website, check out what the brits are doing to their bays, take it easy.
www.baysplits.com
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Pillow
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
>do you really run 4500 RPM on the freeway for extended time?<
Sure you can run it that high, but not for a long time. I usually just do it for 10-15 minutes and then the oil starts to heat up because of the heat temps.
I do not run a head temp gauage, but I hope to add one in the future to ensure I am not melting the thing down.
Remember that peak power stock is at 4400RPM so it is safe to run it up that high.
... In this case I built the motor and it has a C/W crank and other goodies so I rev it more than I would a stock crank engine.
Busta, I have concluded that you must be running the BusBoys sway bar kit... Right? I am kind of leaning this way myself as it should make the bus handle better than the camber compensator.
Take Care,
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese" - FS
Sure you can run it that high, but not for a long time. I usually just do it for 10-15 minutes and then the oil starts to heat up because of the heat temps.
I do not run a head temp gauage, but I hope to add one in the future to ensure I am not melting the thing down.
Remember that peak power stock is at 4400RPM so it is safe to run it up that high.
... In this case I built the motor and it has a C/W crank and other goodies so I rev it more than I would a stock crank engine.
Busta, I have concluded that you must be running the BusBoys sway bar kit... Right? I am kind of leaning this way myself as it should make the bus handle better than the camber compensator.
Take Care,
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese" - FS
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type2guy
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
You won't find another home on the net for bus mods and custom stuff. No other place will tolerate it.
Their loss....our gain!
With people like you guys here, I'm always refreshed reading this board. It's nice. Lets keep it that way.
Their loss....our gain!
With people like you guys here, I'm always refreshed reading this board. It's nice. Lets keep it that way.
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Pillow
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
My God! Rex is still with us!
Been too quiet lately buddy
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
Been too quiet lately buddy
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
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type2guy
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillow:
<B>
Been too quiet lately buddy
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lots going on in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood lately. But things are looking up! Hope to be back in it all within a month or two.
Until then, I'll "lurk at work".
<B>
Been too quiet lately buddy
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lots going on in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood lately. But things are looking up! Hope to be back in it all within a month or two.
Until then, I'll "lurk at work".
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amskeptic
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
I've been reading this thread with interest.
It's funny how subjectivity can lead to fast and sometimes erroneous conclusions.
A splitty that corners "like on rails" is in much greater danger of deciding to jack up and flip over without notice. Any stabilizer bar on the rear end is working against your safety, it will track more crisply, yes, it will corner "flatter," yes, but it is creating weight transfer to the outside wheel that will let go in a fast and unexpected manner. A camber compensator does *not* increase rear axle weight transfer, it actually staves it off.
The front stabilizer bar is there for a good reason. It's purpose is to ensure that the front slides before the rear end steps out.
It is designed to hurry the weight transfer to the outside front wheel to maintain balanced handling when you are at the limit of adhesion.
If you are not at the limit of adhesion, then all the talk about stabilizer bars is merely subjective, it does feel better to have the car cornering flatter.
The wallowing bay-window is absolutely the better handling vehicle at the limits of adhesion. That rear end is *designed* to lay over and reduce the center of gravity to below the rear axle line. The engine/transaxle is beautifully placed for cornering stability. Did you see the movie,
Back To The Future? That Bus was doing some serious slaloming with actors hanging out of the sunroof, just as safe as could be. The front end on the bay window bus has extremely good roll stiffness coupled with a soft compliance. Corner hard in that car, you will feel the rear end lurch soggily to
its cornering position, the inside front wheel will lift, the outside front wheel will lose it, and presto! you have safe predictable understeering that transitions to oversteer very gently, even as you piss your pants in terror. The same cannot be said for the swing-axle buses.
I recommend that bus owners get to a parking lot and methodically, scientifically, ratchet up the cornering speeds to see what you actually have under you. Stay away from curbs, check your tire pressures first. Do not install wider tires than what the factory calls for. These cars were designed to slide long before they tip, fat tires will change that engineering limit in unpleasant ways. I also strongly recommend against lowering, again, it subjectively may feel more secure, but you have just interrupted the factory's designed-in weight transfer rates, roll centers, and initial under/terminal oversteer calibrations. The brilliance of the original engineering has been clouded by an aftermarket capitalism hellbent on separating you from your money. Take any stock bay window to a bumpy freeway offramp, and I will guarantee you the damn thing will outcorner any modified bus at the limit of adhesion. The ability of the tires to track over potholes and lifted concrete slabs depends on every inch of suspension travel designed into these cars. Load up a lowered bus with all of your friends and go hit the deteriorated interstates, you will be bottoming and stressing out the undercarriage something awful. Enjoy your peculiar tire wear, too.
The best set-up for a bay window bus is not too sexy. Put a good set of KYBs all around,
some quality Michelin XH4 195 75 14's at 31psi in front, 35psi in the rear, and then go practice driving hard in a safe place.
There.
Colin
It's funny how subjectivity can lead to fast and sometimes erroneous conclusions.
A splitty that corners "like on rails" is in much greater danger of deciding to jack up and flip over without notice. Any stabilizer bar on the rear end is working against your safety, it will track more crisply, yes, it will corner "flatter," yes, but it is creating weight transfer to the outside wheel that will let go in a fast and unexpected manner. A camber compensator does *not* increase rear axle weight transfer, it actually staves it off.
The front stabilizer bar is there for a good reason. It's purpose is to ensure that the front slides before the rear end steps out.
It is designed to hurry the weight transfer to the outside front wheel to maintain balanced handling when you are at the limit of adhesion.
If you are not at the limit of adhesion, then all the talk about stabilizer bars is merely subjective, it does feel better to have the car cornering flatter.
The wallowing bay-window is absolutely the better handling vehicle at the limits of adhesion. That rear end is *designed* to lay over and reduce the center of gravity to below the rear axle line. The engine/transaxle is beautifully placed for cornering stability. Did you see the movie,
Back To The Future? That Bus was doing some serious slaloming with actors hanging out of the sunroof, just as safe as could be. The front end on the bay window bus has extremely good roll stiffness coupled with a soft compliance. Corner hard in that car, you will feel the rear end lurch soggily to
its cornering position, the inside front wheel will lift, the outside front wheel will lose it, and presto! you have safe predictable understeering that transitions to oversteer very gently, even as you piss your pants in terror. The same cannot be said for the swing-axle buses.
I recommend that bus owners get to a parking lot and methodically, scientifically, ratchet up the cornering speeds to see what you actually have under you. Stay away from curbs, check your tire pressures first. Do not install wider tires than what the factory calls for. These cars were designed to slide long before they tip, fat tires will change that engineering limit in unpleasant ways. I also strongly recommend against lowering, again, it subjectively may feel more secure, but you have just interrupted the factory's designed-in weight transfer rates, roll centers, and initial under/terminal oversteer calibrations. The brilliance of the original engineering has been clouded by an aftermarket capitalism hellbent on separating you from your money. Take any stock bay window to a bumpy freeway offramp, and I will guarantee you the damn thing will outcorner any modified bus at the limit of adhesion. The ability of the tires to track over potholes and lifted concrete slabs depends on every inch of suspension travel designed into these cars. Load up a lowered bus with all of your friends and go hit the deteriorated interstates, you will be bottoming and stressing out the undercarriage something awful. Enjoy your peculiar tire wear, too.
The best set-up for a bay window bus is not too sexy. Put a good set of KYBs all around,
some quality Michelin XH4 195 75 14's at 31psi in front, 35psi in the rear, and then go practice driving hard in a safe place.
There.
Colin
-
amskeptic
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
The engine thing has me thinking. I have a 1973 Bus with a stock stock stock 1.7
I have just hit 436,000 miles after a ten week odyssey across the country, (
I was the blue/white Bus at the Rocky Mountain Motorworks show with the brand-new correct-but-cheesy TMI interior)
I put in a '75 transaxle about ten years ago and cruise this thing at a relentless 75 mph which, acording to my tachometer, is a steady diet of 4,400 rpm for days and days and days at a time, particularly in Arizona where it was 112 degrees, bucking a nasty headwind. My only diagnostic criteria were,
could I hold the dipstick? and, were my valve adjustments closing down? The Type 4 engine, set up correctly, is damn close to bulletproof. All seals are in place. No oil leaks to blanket the cooling fins with crap.
Stock vacuum retard/advance unit working correctly (this is critical for proper timing)and finally, stock carburetor jetting with no air leaks from those stupid brake booster elbows.
I just disassembled the engine to see what I did to it from the last 100,000 miles since the last rebuild in 1992, and the only
boo-boo seems to be some fretting in the crankcase at the main bearing journal #2,
and some fretting of the thrust bearing shell against the saddle. Oh, and my valve guides were pathetic, .025 to .060 slop.
I trust the stock engineering. Properly assembled, it is the most reliable gig in town.
Colin
I have just hit 436,000 miles after a ten week odyssey across the country, (
I was the blue/white Bus at the Rocky Mountain Motorworks show with the brand-new correct-but-cheesy TMI interior)
I put in a '75 transaxle about ten years ago and cruise this thing at a relentless 75 mph which, acording to my tachometer, is a steady diet of 4,400 rpm for days and days and days at a time, particularly in Arizona where it was 112 degrees, bucking a nasty headwind. My only diagnostic criteria were,
could I hold the dipstick? and, were my valve adjustments closing down? The Type 4 engine, set up correctly, is damn close to bulletproof. All seals are in place. No oil leaks to blanket the cooling fins with crap.
Stock vacuum retard/advance unit working correctly (this is critical for proper timing)and finally, stock carburetor jetting with no air leaks from those stupid brake booster elbows.
I just disassembled the engine to see what I did to it from the last 100,000 miles since the last rebuild in 1992, and the only
boo-boo seems to be some fretting in the crankcase at the main bearing journal #2,
and some fretting of the thrust bearing shell against the saddle. Oh, and my valve guides were pathetic, .025 to .060 slop.
I trust the stock engineering. Properly assembled, it is the most reliable gig in town.
Colin
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type4bay74
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
Alot of these post are great replys, I think we get away from posting info and getting into battle of the ego's.
Wouldnt that make a great reality TV show
"BATTLE BUSSES" and have it hosted By a WWF
has been. HA HA
I love all busses Id own both If i could afford a decent Split.
I say go with what works for you. I love the handling of my bay at stock height but would love to lower it correctly to lower the air going underneight and lower the center of gravity to make it better to drive in high winds.
Wouldnt that make a great reality TV show
"BATTLE BUSSES" and have it hosted By a WWF
has been. HA HA
I love all busses Id own both If i could afford a decent Split.
I say go with what works for you. I love the handling of my bay at stock height but would love to lower it correctly to lower the air going underneight and lower the center of gravity to make it better to drive in high winds.
-
Pillow
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
Amskeptic, interesting feedback but not all of it is correct.
The camber compensator is a safety device more than anything and will never really help the bus handle better.
The anti-sawybar should be a very positive improvement on a stock drivetrain. This allows the wheels to move more similarly on a flat plain to "powerdown" in turns. In a stock application the rearend is very sloppy and the disjoined wheels can "hop" dissimilarly and create less traction.
As for the front to rear swaybat setup the front does always tend to have to be larger than the rear so that the front breaks loose before the rear, but this is easy to dialin.
I am not a big fan of lowering busses but if done right they should be better than a higher CG stock bus. Again this is if it has been up on a rack to set the camber/toe/allignment to ensure it is right. In all honesty most busses are very cheaply lowered and it shows.
Also torsion bars can be changed to fine tune the suspension even better. But most people will not bother with this at all. But on Porsches done all the time.
Also a Bilstein shock will run circles around the Kill Your Back models. Granted I do not think the rears are available for a Bay.
When running 15" wheels the Michelins are not the best choice in tires (save them for the Volvos), but for 14's the options are so limited I have no idea what is available.
FWIW, right now my bus in stock height and fair setup can outcorner most SUVs as it is... The main trouble is keeping in the powerband to power out of turns. The annemic 1600DP just does not cut it.
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
The camber compensator is a safety device more than anything and will never really help the bus handle better.
The anti-sawybar should be a very positive improvement on a stock drivetrain. This allows the wheels to move more similarly on a flat plain to "powerdown" in turns. In a stock application the rearend is very sloppy and the disjoined wheels can "hop" dissimilarly and create less traction.
As for the front to rear swaybat setup the front does always tend to have to be larger than the rear so that the front breaks loose before the rear, but this is easy to dialin.
I am not a big fan of lowering busses but if done right they should be better than a higher CG stock bus. Again this is if it has been up on a rack to set the camber/toe/allignment to ensure it is right. In all honesty most busses are very cheaply lowered and it shows.
Also torsion bars can be changed to fine tune the suspension even better. But most people will not bother with this at all. But on Porsches done all the time.
Also a Bilstein shock will run circles around the Kill Your Back models. Granted I do not think the rears are available for a Bay.
When running 15" wheels the Michelins are not the best choice in tires (save them for the Volvos), but for 14's the options are so limited I have no idea what is available.
FWIW, right now my bus in stock height and fair setup can outcorner most SUVs as it is... The main trouble is keeping in the powerband to power out of turns. The annemic 1600DP just does not cut it.
------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino" - FS
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
-
bussta
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:01 am
positive bus improvements
putting swaybars front and back was the best thing for the split, hands down. just because they built them a certain way in the fifties and sixties does not mean that i like the 'ride' theose bus designes offered. seriously, i used to be afraid of freeway onramps that curved! the back end was like on this bungy cord connected to the rest of the car. after bolting down theat sucka , it drives like it knows where i want it to go. i agree with the level of 'performance on rails' argument that keeps getting brought up where the bus just shouldn't be pushed beyong a certain limit. i really don't want any frame piece to go...and of course the irs is a better design. i have driven a porche 914 ...and that! was rails. hey, it's my bus, i drive it daily and it's no bucket of bolts. i ride wide 5 empis with a lower profile tyre, allaround sway bars, front discs, and it handles better than any splitty i have ever driven. after the swar bars were bolted on, i never once fealt like i was going to tip it. smile
if i had the money i would irs it for sure, but enjoy the modified stock because it really does better than i ever imagined a splitty could ride. top class man.
if i had the money i would irs it for sure, but enjoy the modified stock because it really does better than i ever imagined a splitty could ride. top class man.