CB's CNC heads

[Freeman]

The last I heard about CB heads is that they quote: "Ripped off someone elses design" and then in the same breath the people making the accusations are saying the port design is no good ?? !!Make yer minds up.These heads are very good and will not benefit to any great extent from reworking but you'll hear a different story only from engine builders and head porters who want to sell a product they can make more money on. You are doing well to get 200bhp from an aircooled motor and the CB heads will produce that on a streetable engine some of the figures quoted on this forum with regards to piston design and some extra ported heads indicate expected outputs to rise to about 240bhp from the same streetable engine.

[S/ST 6044]

I can tell you guys that C.B. did not ripoff anybodys port design on the 044.If you see the two heads side by side you'll see for yourselves.They have one of the finest engine builder/machinist /head porters in their employ.They have no need to copy someone else.Maybe the port volume available isn't for everybody,but it sure is cool to be able to buy a proven head without waiting for MR. specialist to get around to finishing a set for ya. Whenever that may be....And John C is right!A little custom blending is usually needed to suit the application...


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http://www.ce-vw.com

[JohnConnolly]

Funny thing Ryan,

I agree with you 100%. AJ and Aircooled.Net are working on doing our CNC heads, with AJ doing the finish work on them for the exact reasons you specified. AFAIAC, the CNC heads are NOT even close to "ready to run" after you remove them from the machine. They will "work", but you are only 70% there. Don't get me wrong, they are an excellent value, but they aren't "finished" according to my standards, but they are great for many enthusiasts, and an incredible bang/$. As with anything else, getting the first 80% of an improvement is pretty easy, the last 20% is a biatch. The CNC heads get you the 90%, but the last 10% cost the same as the first 90%! We are just trying to raise the bar further, and obviously our market is a lot smaller because the heads will cost more, but will be right up there with the best of them without waiting for 2 years to get your heads. :-/

I talked with Rick at CB about their heads because I have had some problems in the past (IN THE PAST) with several CB heads, and he clarified that the issues I had problems with were fixed (and I believe him, I've seen the improvement in areas that I had seen problems with).

Ours will be offerred in 2 stages of port, equivalent to our L6 and Race ports, in 90.5/92mm bore, and 94mm bore.

Besides this expected work, we are doing some R&D now on some VERY interesting stuff WRT our heads, some of it never used in the VW Industry (as usual, to bring 2002 tech to a 1970s Industry, and I'm not talking about CNC work either). These are along the same lines as our Squishy Pistons, and can work with or WO the squishies', and hasn't been used in the VW Industry yet, more stuff to shake the tree with.

We plan on debuting them in early 2003, stay tuned.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

[evil_vw]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Freeman:
These heads are very good and will not benefit to any great extent from reworking but you'll hear a different story only from engine builders and head porters who want to sell a product they can make more money on.
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wow- thats quite a strong statement, albeit mostly incorrect. ANY out-of-the-box head will most definately benefit from hand porting by an experienced porter. and while you may be correct in mentioning some greedy proprieters out for a buck, most reputable ones are out to help you get what will work best for your particular application. if they happen to make a buck in the process, well good for them. thats why they're in business, right??

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"OK, got the duct tape, JB weld, bailing wire, and a big hammer- everything should be fine."

[This message has been edited by evil_vw (edited 10-15-2002).]

[slowsixtyduece]

Ive heard they could use a little more hand p and p, but i would like to run them and see what they do. What do you guys think i should do? CNC o44's or AJ simms 044's- the cnc ones are about $200 cheaper, but is it worth it?? Hmmmmmm......

[Dave Cormack]

There will be an article coming out in one of the magazines soon about the C.B. heads.
Yes, according to some sources, the heads, as they come off the CNC machine, could stand a little "flap wheel action" to really smooth out the ports. Depends on your thoughts- some say the air/fuel mix never hits the side of the port anyway, and a little "tumble effect" is good for the atomization of the incoming charge. I was told by someone who has had LOTS od experience porting heads, that piece of wisdom.( And NOT who you are probably thinking, either).
. As far as them being someone else's port, that is entirely, unequivocally, categorically, NOT TRUE. The port configuration belongs to C.B. Performance, it is NOT anyone else's port.
If you want YOUR port configuration applied to the CNC heads, it's an involved process of mapping hundreds of "points" in the intake and exhaust ports and chamber,, then transferring it to a computer hard drive or CD or some other form of data storage.
The E to I ratio, according to TWO DIFFERENT flow benches, was either 75% or 78 %, depending on which flow bench you want to believe. Both tests were done within an hour of each other, at very close to the same ambient air temperature and humidity, on the same model of Super-Flo flow bench.
Are they good bang for the buck? My personal opinion is yes, they are a good value, for the guy that can't afford to spend $2,000.00 on a set of "Holy Mackerel" heads. The CB 044's have proven themselves as a good head casting
(Correct, John the early ones had a few "glitches" but that seems to have been resolved), and for $700.00, I personally feel that its a good "bang for the buck". These are my own personal opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer, nor do I work for of have a personal-gain relationship with CB Performance, Direct Motion, Inc. or anyone else, once again, JMHO.

[JoeSumen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave Cormack:
<B>There will be an article coming out in one of the magazines soon about the C.B. heads.
Yes, according to some sources, the heads, as they come off the CNC machine, could stand a little "flap wheel action" to really smooth out the ports. Depends on your thoughts- some say the air/fuel mix never hits the side of the port anyway, and a little "tumble effect" is good for the atomization of the incoming charge. I was told by someone who has had LOTS od experience porting heads, that piece of wisdom.( And NOT who you are probably thinking, either).
. As far as them being someone else's port, that is entirely, unequivocally, categorically, NOT TRUE. The port configuration belongs to C.B. Performance, it is NOT anyone else's port.
If you want YOUR port configuration applied to the CNC heads, it's an involved process of mapping hundreds of "points" in the intake and exhaust ports and chamber,, then transferring it to a computer hard drive or CD or some other form of data storage.
The E to I ratio, according to TWO DIFFERENT flow benches, was either 75% or 78 %, depending on which flow bench you want to believe. Both tests were done within an hour of each other, at very close to the same ambient air temperature and humidity, on the same model of Super-Flo flow bench.
Are they good bang for the buck? My personal opinion is yes, they are a good value, for the guy that can't afford to spend $2,000.00 on a set of "Holy Mackerel" heads. The CB 044's have proven themselves as a good head casting
(Correct, John the early ones had a few "glitches" but that seems to have been resolved), and for $700.00, I personally feel that its a good "bang for the buck". These are my own personal opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer, nor do I work for of have a personal-gain relationship with CB Performance, Direct Motion, Inc. or anyone else, once again, JMHO.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concurr with your statements Dave. By simple process of program data, exclusivity is guaranteed. Unless of course some fiendish plan to heist the program by some disgruntled employee were to exist. At which point it would be of value only to those having the hardware to utilize it. I`m not implying IN ANY way this is the case. It is the only plausible way for a renegade set of heads to exist with the exact same port configuration. My current evaluation program is well under way on these heads. Though not a "one-size-fits-all" head, it is indeed a remarkable value. The points referring to laminar air flow, boundry layers etc, have been much researched in the automotive industry. THERE ARE NO BLOCKBUSTER ideas that are NEW pertaining to cylinder head design, port configuration, combustion chamber design. They have ALL been around for ages. Some so-called "new" technology I take offense to. Being in fact variations on a theme, they are simply concepts being utilized on an ACVW proven on different platforms. Being an S.A.E member I regularly conduct research on specific areas. Aside from MBZ which applied for and received patents on their spark plugless combustion chamber. The basic formatting has remained the same as it has been for years. There are, and will be ways of accessing these issues and others in the future by integrating automated operations. In the mean time. Lets give credit where credit is due. Porting a head is NOTHING new. Utilizing a computer with a complex program, and the required machining equipment along with it is. And, in context, only "NEW" to the ACVW industry.


Joe

[Dave Cormack]

Thank You, Joe. You put it much more eloquently than I did, but I think we are "on the same page" here. CNC porting has been around for a long time, and there is a company in San Diego called Bugpatch that has been CNC porting VW heads for a few years, but I believe it was with a 3-axis machine, not a 5-axis like CB/Direct Motion uses. I still maintain that they are good value for the money spent. Will they work on the "Paradise Express"? Heck, no ! Will they work on a Pro-Mod PRA car that runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile? again, heck, no1 But will they work on a 2016, 2275, 1914, VW with reasonable compression and cam, and maybe a set of IDF's, Kadrons, or the new Weber 48 IDA's? YES. I had set set here in my office, and I purposely lagged on getting them sent back to CB until yesterday, trying to figure out an honest way to keep them, short of forking out the $700.00. There was no honest way, so back to Farmersville they went
By the way, that brings up another point- A lot of people seem to think I can waltz into a VW parts emporium, and waltz out with whatever I want, carte blanche for all my VW needs. Lord, I wish it was that easy. While I *DO* get some "freebies", and I *DO* get some "smokin' discounts", 99% of the time, I pay FULL RETAIL, just like you guys do. I scrimp and save and look at the catalogs and websites and dream, just like you guys do. I have heard of occasions that someone has "scammed" a load of parts, or attempted to, in the name of a magazine, ( and that doesn't mean one of the VW mags, I used to work at a place that had over 30 car-specific magazine titles), but, to me, the repercussions of that, in terms of integrity and respectability in the industry, far outweigh and short-term gain. That being said, Hey, Joe, about those"R", "RS", and "RSR" engines....

[JoeSumen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave Cormack:
<B>Thank You, Joe. You put it much more eloquently than I did, but I think we are "on the same page" here. CNC porting has been around for a long time, and there is a company in San Diego called Bugpatch that has been CNC porting VW heads for a few years, but I believe it was with a 3-axis machine, not a 5-axis like CB/Direct Motion uses. I still maintain that they are good value for the money spent. Will they work on the "Paradise Express"? Heck, no ! Will they work on a Pro-Mod PRA car that runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile? again, heck, no1 But will they work on a 2016, 2275, 1914, VW with reasonable compression and cam, and maybe a set of IDF's, Kadrons, or the new Weber 48 IDA's? YES. I had set set here in my office, and I purposely lagged on getting them sent back to CB until yesterday, trying to figure out an honest way to keep them, short of forking out the $700.00. There was no honest way, so back to Farmersville they went
By the way, that brings up another point- A lot of people seem to think I can waltz into a VW parts emporium, and waltz out with whatever I want, carte blanche for all my VW needs. Lord, I wish it was that easy. While I *DO* get some "freebies", and I *DO* get some "smokin' discounts", 99% of the time, I pay FULL RETAIL, just like you guys do. I scrimp and save and look at the catalogs and websites and dream, just like you guys do. I have heard of occasions that someone has "scammed" a load of parts, or attempted to, in the name of a magazine, ( and that doesn't mean one of the VW mags, I used to work at a place that had over 30 car-specific magazine titles), but, to me, the repercussions of that, in terms of integrity and respectability in the industry, far outweigh and short-term gain. That being said, Hey, Joe, about those"R", "RS", and "RSR" engines.... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Dave? I`m pondering the inclusion of the "R", "RS" and "RSR" motors in your reply. I`m hoping you`re not implying they are some farce, "ad play" or otherwise, thereby affecting my integrity or respectability.

[Dave Cormack]

No, NO, Joe, not at all !!! That was not the intent at all !!! Heck no, I want to waltz in, and waltz out with an "RSR" engine, that has GOT to be a thrill ride in ANY VW. No, as a matter of fact, I like that "incognito 2332 under the lid with no standoffs" idea, what fun that would be in a stock looking '65, with stock wheels, stock paint, stock interior, etc etc. I'm soory you took it that way, nothing could be further from what my intent was.. !!!
If anyone else felt the same way about my post, I sincerely spologize.

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

Dave, that crushed me, I thought you'd come lookin for a TIV...

[Dave Cormack]

Jake, if I was driving that imaginary '65 back from Cleveland, GA, I might . But, for a "saturday night special" ( and by that I mean No repeat *NO* disrespect, just a figure of speech denoting a "playtoy" to spank V-8's), the cast iron boys would get their feelings hurt much more by a "wimpy" ( again,*NO* disrespect meant) Type 1 motor.. Even THEY know what "Big Block" means....Heck, Jake, even YOU have played with a 1914 and some others before....

[slowsixtyduece]

Well, i still dont know which heads i should go with- i think ill just wait for a while to see what john at aircooled.net is gonna do... Oh, and i would love to have one of those rsr engines. my car would fly!!

[Dave Cormack]

SlowSixtyDeuce, I would say this:
Get the best heads you can afford, whether that is some stock dual ports, or some double throw-down major heads with intake ports you could camp out in, whatever fits your budget AND your application. Super-Flo's, on the street, and on a 1641, would be major overkill. Best thing to do- find someone you trust, or stay on this forum, and keep asking questions. Pretty soon, you'll begin to figure out what other folks are doing, and why. Most of an engine's power, is made in the cylinder heads. Think of your engine as an air pump- The more efficiently you get the air in and out of the combustion chamber, the better that pump will work. Add a spark plug on the top of that pump, and some gas along with the air, and voila ! You got a motor ! Simplified, yes, but the basic principle is there. A stock dual port 1600 doesn't need 44x37 valves ( I said STOCK, not modified with lotsa cam & compression, etc), but, by the same token, a 2387cc with a set of stock dual ports won't run past about 2500 rpm, if it even starts...

[JoeSumen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave Cormack:
<B>SlowSixtyDeuce, I would say this:
Get the best heads you can afford, whether that is some stock dual ports, or some double throw-down major heads with intake ports you could camp out in, whatever fits your budget AND your application. Super-Flo's, on the street, and on a 1641, would be major overkill. Best thing to do- find someone you trust, or stay on this forum, and keep asking questions. Pretty soon, you'll begin to figure out what other folks are doing, and why. Most of an engine's power, is made in the cylinder heads. Think of your engine as an air pump- The more efficiently you get the air in and out of the combustion chamber, the better that pump will work. Add a spark plug on the top of that pump, and some gas along with the air, and voila ! You got a motor ! Simplified, yes, but the basic principle is there. A stock dual port 1600 doesn't need 44x37 valves ( I said STOCK, not modified with lotsa cam & compression, etc), but, by the same token, a 2387cc with a set of stock dual ports won't run past about 2500 rpm, if it even starts...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dave, I agree with your post......As an aside...For several years now I`ve been itching to develope a high horsepower-small displacement type 1 (64 X 83) 1385 cc turbocharged/intercooled, multiple throttle bodied motor as an "engineering excersize", to demonstrate the technology available, and how it applies when intelligently configured. Of course....some relatively exotic components, Ti rods, valves/keepers, schmitthelm springs, Scat case/Split port heads, "Biral" type cylinders........and the beat goes on, would be required. Still, an interesting idea I`ve been toying with for quite some time. With the trend being displacement, which I wholeheartedly agree with, the true impressive statistics lie in H.P./cu.in... I think I`ll give Mr. Lieb a call here soon. I think it`ll be fun.

Joe