Just left the Yamaha dealer.
The Roadstar 1600 is 95mmx~108 (stroke is approximate from memory)
the 1700 is 97xsame stroke.
The heads are 4 valve, pushrod, but use a single big tube, close together and use cross shafts for actuation, and the heads are mirror images.(Front/back)
As to the aircraft engine---If those are yamaha cylinders, the finnage is all wrong, the ones from the Yamaha factory fins are far fewer, thick, and relatively widely spaced.
The 1600(95) jugs are $340 US ea retail, the 1700s(97s) are $400 ea.
They get~ $100-135 a piston, JE or Venolia/Ross would still be cheaper/better.
OTOH of you could find a couple of wrecks, it would be interesting to try.
Aircooled wbx heads
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Piledriver
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Type 5 Joe
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Wally
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Thanks for inquiring so fast!
97mm sounds the right size from what I read. I would like to see those for myself.
I will try to get some more info from this side on what was actually used on the oxyboxer from GWD (Gerd Weiser Dusseldorf)
Thanks,
Walter
97mm sounds the right size from what I read. I would like to see those for myself.
I will try to get some more info from this side on what was actually used on the oxyboxer from GWD (Gerd Weiser Dusseldorf)
Thanks,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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Type 5 Joe
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I think the most value to be had is to bite the bullet, and have the studs re-located...
Type I 94's / C.B performance 044 Heads / Eagle Cams, lifters go into all of my combinations lately... This is a value which is hard to beat, once you do the math.
At least for a 1st motor... the nickies and other trick parts would be good to try after success with one Oxyboxer.. I Promise you'll learn some stuff on a first build.
These lessons become very expensive.. When you go for the exotic parts on a first build / make a mistake
I just scored 5 complete Core motors... I need a few more to do a Production run (10) of these cases.
I currently have two running, and 1 that will be about 2500cc in the works.
I have several in customer's rides, and a few more customer's that have yet to complete assembly... I'm doing a pancake version right now... It'll replace a Type III motor
-Or Type IV, He He
I'm sorry, Type IV's are heavy pieces of expensive Junk!
- Joe
Type I 94's / C.B performance 044 Heads / Eagle Cams, lifters go into all of my combinations lately... This is a value which is hard to beat, once you do the math.
At least for a 1st motor... the nickies and other trick parts would be good to try after success with one Oxyboxer.. I Promise you'll learn some stuff on a first build.
These lessons become very expensive.. When you go for the exotic parts on a first build / make a mistake
I just scored 5 complete Core motors... I need a few more to do a Production run (10) of these cases.
I currently have two running, and 1 that will be about 2500cc in the works.
I have several in customer's rides, and a few more customer's that have yet to complete assembly... I'm doing a pancake version right now... It'll replace a Type III motor
-Or Type IV, He He
I'm sorry, Type IV's are heavy pieces of expensive Junk!
- Joe
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Piledriver
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I agree, for most NA apps, a straight T1/T5 setup is most cost effective/easy.
If you want >94 bore, or need water cooled heads...
Does anyone know anything about the late T1 cases?
Did they have the oil filter like a wasser?
Were they Aluminum or still mostly mag alloy?
Industrial motors?
(Still wondering about the block they use)
Most Germans I know speak better english than half the americans I know... I'll wait to see if ehy respond to you, Joe, I have some good German friends if you get nowhere. (They are unfortunately down south near Munchen)
If you want >94 bore, or need water cooled heads...
Does anyone know anything about the late T1 cases?
Did they have the oil filter like a wasser?
Were they Aluminum or still mostly mag alloy?
Industrial motors?
(Still wondering about the block they use)
Most Germans I know speak better english than half the americans I know... I'll wait to see if ehy respond to you, Joe, I have some good German friends if you get nowhere. (They are unfortunately down south near Munchen)
Last edited by Piledriver on Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Type 5 Joe
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It's a Wasserboxer Case for Shure... All of the motors have VW cases and heads.
They do sell some obvious ACVW Type I based motors too... further down their product's page.
They certainly don't advertise that any of those motors are Volkswagen engines, anywhere...
I have seen every aftermarket case up to Date.. From the Deano, Pauter, Scat, Bugpack, ect... to the latest ones out of Brazil.... to the pent-roof design.. And the Type IV factory cases.
The only one I have not dealt with is the one out of Vancouver Washington, and the C.B. Performance one that was never released...
None have the same features as the Wasser / Oxy... NONE
Still waiting for a responce from them, I doubt if they'll respond for some reason...
- Joe
They do sell some obvious ACVW Type I based motors too... further down their product's page.
They certainly don't advertise that any of those motors are Volkswagen engines, anywhere...
I have seen every aftermarket case up to Date.. From the Deano, Pauter, Scat, Bugpack, ect... to the latest ones out of Brazil.... to the pent-roof design.. And the Type IV factory cases.
The only one I have not dealt with is the one out of Vancouver Washington, and the C.B. Performance one that was never released...
None have the same features as the Wasser / Oxy... NONE
Still waiting for a responce from them, I doubt if they'll respond for some reason...
- Joe
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Type 5 Joe
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Piledriver
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I'm dubious these are Wasser blocks... The oil capacity is listed as 3.5 l.
Thought the wasser was 4.0L (4.2 qts)
I have read of "late model" T1s with spin-on oil filters and Hyd lifters---
I would almost bet these are those blocks.
The sumps don't look deep enough, bit hard to tell in the pic.
The "1700" series are DEFINATELY T1 blocks, 2.5 l oil capacity.
Or I could be wrong.
All their motors cylinders have the same heavy finnage, same style/location of cut away fins, 88s or 97s...
If I am right, a wasser would still be the better block by far, but I'm interested in their PARTS.(heads/jugs/pistons)
Thought the wasser was 4.0L (4.2 qts)
I have read of "late model" T1s with spin-on oil filters and Hyd lifters---
I would almost bet these are those blocks.
The sumps don't look deep enough, bit hard to tell in the pic.
The "1700" series are DEFINATELY T1 blocks, 2.5 l oil capacity.
Or I could be wrong.
All their motors cylinders have the same heavy finnage, same style/location of cut away fins, 88s or 97s...
If I am right, a wasser would still be the better block by far, but I'm interested in their PARTS.(heads/jugs/pistons)
Last edited by Piledriver on Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Type 5 Joe
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- Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:01 am
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Richie
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 12:01 am
Hello,
Considering motorcycle cilinders, 2 types spring to my mind:
Ducati 1000DS 94mm bore x 71,5mm stroke, but only the top cilinder, because the finnage of the lower cilinder is totally wrong and the other could be a Yamaha BT 1100 Bulldog 95mm bore x 75mm stroke.
It seems these can be used but I don't know their prize but I think it will be in the near the cost of a set of Nickies. Then you'll have to make them fit. I doubt if they are worth the effort, but then again, time is often free
!
Cheers,
Richard
Considering motorcycle cilinders, 2 types spring to my mind:
Ducati 1000DS 94mm bore x 71,5mm stroke, but only the top cilinder, because the finnage of the lower cilinder is totally wrong and the other could be a Yamaha BT 1100 Bulldog 95mm bore x 75mm stroke.
It seems these can be used but I don't know their prize but I think it will be in the near the cost of a set of Nickies. Then you'll have to make them fit. I doubt if they are worth the effort, but then again, time is often free
!Cheers,
Richard
Last edited by Richie on Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
I glad you're sorry about that! hehe.Type 5 Joe wrote: I'm sorry, Type IV's are heavy pieces of expensive Junk!
- Joe
If you want more than say 2,4 ltr for a street application, the type IV is the ONLY way.
Pile,
The VW magnesium case with the spun-on oil filter mounting you referred to, comes from the 1600 vanagon (type 3 bus) that was build roughly around '79-81 when the type 4 2 liters (CU prefix) were the alternative. In Europe, these cases have a CT prefix and indeed run hydro's as did the 2 liters at that time.
Greetings,
Walter
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Wally
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Sorry, the above was me. Damn logon. It used to be automatic..
In addition: Joe, I also think that the wbx is the best stock VW (and most if not all others) case from an engineering point of view.
From a High performance point of view however bigger IS better! Funny, that I should tell you americans this haha.
Application decides which case you need IM(not so)HO.
Best regards,
Walter
In addition: Joe, I also think that the wbx is the best stock VW (and most if not all others) case from an engineering point of view.
From a High performance point of view however bigger IS better! Funny, that I should tell you americans this haha.
Application decides which case you need IM(not so)HO.
Best regards,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Actually... a wasser can be (relatively) be easily built to 103x82+, the deck height starts getting interesting after that.
(The Oettinger/berg 103 jugs are unobtainium, tho)
You are right , though, the 103s are not viable air cooled on a wasser block, but a long stroke (to 90mm IIRC, cheby journal) is doable.
The only thing limiting T4s is the heads... (I guess the same could be said of big wassers)
(The Oettinger/berg 103 jugs are unobtainium, tho)
You are right , though, the 103s are not viable air cooled on a wasser block, but a long stroke (to 90mm IIRC, cheby journal) is doable.
The only thing limiting T4s is the heads... (I guess the same could be said of big wassers)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Type 5 Joe
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:01 am
If you want more than say 2,4 ltr for a street application, the type IV is the ONLY way.
Wally,
Actually, You can build an 82 X 94 motor for only $500.00 more than the base price of a regular Oxy Conversion...
Even if you spent $1500 on a custom forged Wasser Crank (up to 90mm stroke), you would be doing the project for far less than a comparable Type IV.
No special fan shroud is needed ($500.00 - $800.00, no special exuast ($1000.00 for a good one) No need to replace the seats in the heads... I could go on.. There are alot of special parts / knowledge needed to do a Type IV Correctly
If the average person could have someone like Jake do a motor for them, or someone with his kind of experience... This would be a way to go.
The beauty of this conversion is that someone with reular Type I engine building experience can do one successfully... And for a more reasonable price.
Cams, lifters, heads, everything is available for these from the Type I market.. even CNC ported Heads, ect...
I'm shure you could do a Type 5, with the most expensive parts available... and still have a motor that would out-perform, weigh less, and out-live a comparable Type IV... for less $$$
The best part is the driving characteristics.. You can have a motor with bottom end torque... and top end.
A big Type IV has a different feel... They are a Torque motor
This is why hardly anyone Drag races the Type IV...
- Joe
Wally,
Actually, You can build an 82 X 94 motor for only $500.00 more than the base price of a regular Oxy Conversion...
Even if you spent $1500 on a custom forged Wasser Crank (up to 90mm stroke), you would be doing the project for far less than a comparable Type IV.
No special fan shroud is needed ($500.00 - $800.00, no special exuast ($1000.00 for a good one) No need to replace the seats in the heads... I could go on.. There are alot of special parts / knowledge needed to do a Type IV Correctly
If the average person could have someone like Jake do a motor for them, or someone with his kind of experience... This would be a way to go.
The beauty of this conversion is that someone with reular Type I engine building experience can do one successfully... And for a more reasonable price.
Cams, lifters, heads, everything is available for these from the Type I market.. even CNC ported Heads, ect...
I'm shure you could do a Type 5, with the most expensive parts available... and still have a motor that would out-perform, weigh less, and out-live a comparable Type IV... for less $$$
The best part is the driving characteristics.. You can have a motor with bottom end torque... and top end.
A big Type IV has a different feel... They are a Torque motor
This is why hardly anyone Drag races the Type IV...
- Joe
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Wally
- Posts: 4564
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
I just got a message back from Gerd Weiser from Germany, who occasionally builds high end oxy engines for customers:
They CAN supply the Limbach twin spark heads with the wbx stud spacing!!
That info is not on their web-site of course: www.GWD-weiser.de
Either as a raw casting or totally machined with valve guides and seats.
Raw casting set costs ? 464,-- and complete machined costs ? 1000,--. The machined version is without any porting work done tho.
Also piston/cylinder sets can be had for the wbx stud spacing: I think they are Alu/Nikasil: 96mm costs ?1.100,-- and 97mm is ? 1.716,-- a set.
So there you have it.
Greetings,
Walter
They CAN supply the Limbach twin spark heads with the wbx stud spacing!!
That info is not on their web-site of course: www.GWD-weiser.de
Either as a raw casting or totally machined with valve guides and seats.
Raw casting set costs ? 464,-- and complete machined costs ? 1000,--. The machined version is without any porting work done tho.
Also piston/cylinder sets can be had for the wbx stud spacing: I think they are Alu/Nikasil: 96mm costs ?1.100,-- and 97mm is ? 1.716,-- a set.
So there you have it.
Greetings,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks