TI Cooling system test, Week one in review

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:16 am

what is used on the bottome side of the cylinder's in your DTM design??? is there any sort of deflector tin? because it seems like if air is going through too freely it wouldn't be focused enough to have an effect Kinda like how a venturi does it's job. Like blowing air on your hand and then feeling the difference blowing the air through a straw on your hand

Farmer out of town · Post by **Farmer out of town** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:08 am

bugnut68 wrote:Jake, I, as well as many other enthusiasts I'm sure, appreciate the testing you're doing as well as the fact that you're sharing all this info with us. Without people dedicated to ensuring the air-cooled VW (and Porsche) live on I"m sure the industry would eventually just disappear. I'm greatly looking forward, in particular, to seeing the results of all the "chrome aftermarket junk" testing. I've always wanted to know how that stuff would fare in hardcore testing, even though some of the parts are obviously inefficient just looking at them. Have you ever tested the results of placing the oil cooler behind the shroud? I know it's a horrible idea and just about the worst thing you can do, but here in Oregon there's a couple of guys that do this on their race cars and in some of the older (mid 80s) mags there were a number of cars that were set up like that...Again, I know that's a dumb thing to do, but I'd be interested in seeing some numbers on that too. Good work so far!

I did that cooler mount on my very first 1680 slip-in calloook engine with duals, heads, cam etc. Fried it to the junkyard in 5000 miles

did a similar with stock SB cooling and a 8pass thermostatic controlled cooler mounted between the gearbox and the wheel. That actually lasted more than 30K miles, beleive it or not. Knowing what we know today that almost seems impossible, but I think the reason was that the oil was helping it to stay cool. Not that I would ever do that again. but I did´nt know better at the time.
Torben

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:08 am

Someone above asked why the testing is being done on a dyno....

Well, thats what a dyno is for! It gives us a standard load, standard condition and very few factors that could cause variations and incorrect readings.

Testing in a car WILL ALSO BE DONE. But having the dyno results in a standard form will give us baselines to compare from when the engine is installed into the Blue Bug. Testing will not stop at the Dyno! I just want to narrow fdown the systems thhat work terriably, and not even include them in the vehicle testing.

I'm using a 3500 RPM engine speed with a 10 lb/ft load. This gives us a 35HP draw on the engine as a standard. There is no better way to test the integrity of a system than in a condition like this. I have invested in an awesome weather station to help collect the data. The weather plays a role in what we do, but after the dyno cell warms up all the tests have remained the same for the weather data logging. I chose this time of year for the testing as the weather hardly changes for the middle of January here- last week the weather was within 5% repeatability every day..

When I do something, I do it right! By leaving the engine 100% untouched for all the testing, and between systems reinstaling the stock system for a test run to check for repeatability- It gets no better!

I would not spend weeks of my time doing this if I were getting inaccurate data!

Someione asked about lower tins..... tried them in 3 ways so far.. Tried using just one under the #1 side, and stock under the other side... Tried a pair under each side, and tried NO TIN under either side... None of it really made a difference on the head temps..

For the Chrome junk tests I have 2 different 36horse shrouds. Both are just off the shelf units that I bought from Bugpack a few months back. I also have the CB Performance trapezoid shroud, as well as a center mounted fan. I'll post my outline later for the testing so you can see the line up.

Am I saying that my testing 1000% accurate- no.... I'm saying that it give a super solid base to see the differences in THE COOLING SYSTEM when used in a given setting, on a given heat generation device that is basically calibrated twice a day.

Please don't doubt me, if you do I may ask you to come help me, or chip in for fuel or better tools to do the job even better. I'm doing the best I can, and thats better than the other 100% of the people who don't give a damn and sell junk!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:13 am

BTW, tomorrow I'll be testing the stock late model TI system with the venturi on the fan inlet....we'll see what happens with that..

Farmer out of town · Post by **Farmer out of town** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:30 am

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:BTW, tomorrow I'll be testing the stock late model TI system with the venturi on the fan inlet....we'll see what happens with that..

Now THAT will be interesting ! (too) But we, over here has discussed that factory "invention" a lot.

Torben

Victor H · Post by **Victor H** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:37 pm

Jake, I think what you are doing is really incredible. None of the "big" names would be willing to invest the time and money to show what works and what doesn't like you have. I'm sure the investment is on the order of thousands of $$ excluding the time you could have spent building more customer motors. Thanks for sharing this valuable information. I don't suppose any of the VW magazines would be interested in publishing any of this?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:31 pm

Victor H wrote: I don't suppose any of the VW magazines would be interested in publishing any of this?

They were not interested... Said that "My system would be the winner and the advertisers would get mad" Well, since I'm not an advertsiser they won't even consider it.

Thats kind of funny since at the present MY SYSTEM ALREADY LOST! AND I ADMITTED IT!!! IT NEEDS REDESIGN! Excuse me for not being like the "Others" and just slapping that sucker in a big ad and saying its the best thing since sliced bread!

This went from R&D for my shroud just to prove what it could do, to a test that has so far proven very interesting. So far nothing has beat stock!!

I have atleast 4,000.00 in time and parts invested so far, and we are not even half way done....

Maybe if enough letters ended up in the editors inbox they would cover the testing... I have video tape, over 200 pics and 15 spreadsheets with info already.

Max Welton · Post by **Max Welton** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:18 pm

Actually, Jake, I think their problem is not that your shroud may win. It's that any shroud will win. And in order to have a winner, there must be loosers. The magazines are there to support the industry, not the hobbiest. And the content reflects this.

Event coverage is an example of content that can support both. Real head-to-head product comparisons can only benefit the consumer and whichever product comes out on top.

(EDIT: Objective comparisons might also win back some credibility for that particular magazine. Tough to calculate ROI on credibility, tough.)

I find myself asking "What purpose do the magazines serve in terms of keep this particular hobby alive?" It's a question worth asking both from a short and long term perspective. After all, we now have this wonderful internet thing as a credible replacement. About the only thing print media offers that I can think of is something one can carry around that does not require a computer to read.

Max (not-in-the-business) Welton

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:38 pm

Yep, max you are right... Thats why I have PLENTY of bandwicth and lots of spreadsheets!

who the hell needs print when you have windows???? LOL

Travis S · Post by **Travis S** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:44 pm

Rember when hot vws compared rubber window seals. Wow I was suprised each one had 1 negative and a couple of positives, go figure.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:50 pm

Thats because they can't afford to make people mad... Don't get me wrong.... The magazine guys have a tough time, they have to try and remain everyones friend.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:40 pm

With the forums I often consider canceling the mags, but I keep suscribing for the pics.

I know you tried less air Jake, but I would try even less. I think less air would give the air inside the shroud time to equallize before exiting. Hell if you have to, wrap a shield around #1! LOL

Ron

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:44 pm

I tried a 1:1 drive on each system, the results keep the same splits, just run hotter......

DudeAndHisBus · Post by **DudeAndHisBus** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:00 pm

Just a thought, but what would happen if you narrow the shroud on the 1/2 side, having a smaller percentage of it go over the #1 cylinder?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:22 pm

Thats exactly what the next move will be, but before we do that we are going to try a transfer tube to take air from one, to the 3-4 side and see what happens.