won't start troubleshooting, getting nowhere!
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Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
Thank you very much. In a nut shell, the car doesn't turn over and fuel pump gets no juice, good starter & good ign. switch. I just got it and have no manuals as of yet. Almost bought a haynes then realized it only goes to 73. What I need most is the listing and physical location of the components (relays, switches) on the starter circuit. Will be forever indebted.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The switch on the side of the tranny is not the neutral safety switch. Its for the deceleration valve. I'm not kidding...the neutral safety switch is on the right side of the shifter...TAKE ALL OF the COVERS OFF. This is easy. Its a beige nylon material contact block about 2.5-3 inches long.....its there! Its also in all of the books....and is also the same part as type 3. look in the type 3 book if needed. That can and will cause all of this. Look for the similar thread from the guys up in Arkansas that retored that 412 last year. They had this very same problem. Itwas the neutral safety switch.
The neutral safety switch mainly denies ground acces to one of the power relays. Generally the starter relay. You CAN cirumvent this ...simply by opening the relay body and closing the contact with a pair of hemostats.
The injection voltage supply relay is bolted to the top of the ECU. Look under the right hand rear seat arm rest. Thatswhere it is.
If the Starter voltage relay is not under the dash just below teh brake master cylinder, but above the pedals...then it may be on the drivers side under teh back seat near the heater relays. Its not the books that are th only thing confusing. DO nOT look at Chiltons or clymer manuals...they are all screwed up. Also...quit asking the local mechanic. They are some of the worst with 411/412...unless they are KNOWN to have real experience. They are guessing. Also...the 914 is only vaguely related to 412. The wiring configuration is similar...but the diagram will just confuse you. None of the relays and connections interchange. Ray
The neutral safety switch mainly denies ground acces to one of the power relays. Generally the starter relay. You CAN cirumvent this ...simply by opening the relay body and closing the contact with a pair of hemostats.
The injection voltage supply relay is bolted to the top of the ECU. Look under the right hand rear seat arm rest. Thatswhere it is.
If the Starter voltage relay is not under the dash just below teh brake master cylinder, but above the pedals...then it may be on the drivers side under teh back seat near the heater relays. Its not the books that are th only thing confusing. DO nOT look at Chiltons or clymer manuals...they are all screwed up. Also...quit asking the local mechanic. They are some of the worst with 411/412...unless they are KNOWN to have real experience. They are guessing. Also...the 914 is only vaguely related to 412. The wiring configuration is similar...but the diagram will just confuse you. None of the relays and connections interchange. Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Ray is right !!
Longbeach, Ray has to be right!! You arent getting anything to the fuel pump and starter, so it has to be the switch! I would just be looking over that tranny and shifter area for wires. It has to be there near the shift arm on the tranny and somewhere in the shifter assembly!! You'll get it man!! Dont get frustrated yet! You will need that later for the front end! LOL! Just have fun with it and be careful under the car! Bill
p.s. I dont have the t3 brown book or I would email you scans from it.
In the Cylmers they just show the switch sitting next to the right of the rod on top for the backup lights with a four wire connector/switch with the wire connector sitting standing up and mounted to the right two bolt plate the top rear wire going to the starter the top front(car) going to the backup light the bottom rear from the ign/starter swtich and the bottom front going to fuse term 15. It looks like it is fixed to the plate and the shifter shaft has a contact that moves by the switch. So chk the fuse for 15 too! It looks like that nylon vw assemble stuff.
p.s. I dont have the t3 brown book or I would email you scans from it.
In the Cylmers they just show the switch sitting next to the right of the rod on top for the backup lights with a four wire connector/switch with the wire connector sitting standing up and mounted to the right two bolt plate the top rear wire going to the starter the top front(car) going to the backup light the bottom rear from the ign/starter swtich and the bottom front going to fuse term 15. It looks like it is fixed to the plate and the shifter shaft has a contact that moves by the switch. So chk the fuse for 15 too! It looks like that nylon vw assemble stuff.
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
any connection?
Longbeach you get to hear a starter or pump????? Maybe find the relay or connection to ground side for the shift switch? Bill
p.s. I 'll try to email you the shifter pic from Cylmers..sorry dont have your email address.
p.s. I 'll try to email you the shifter pic from Cylmers..sorry dont have your email address.
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Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
I can not thank you people enough for the help, caring & support. I am not responding yet because I haven't had a minutes time to carry out Ray & vwbill suggestions and therefore can not provide any usefull feedback. Been very busy and hope to get to her in a few days. will let yall know what happens. again many many thanks.
p.s I have the Bentley with the safety switch pics Ray refers to. and my email is [email protected]
p.s I have the Bentley with the safety switch pics Ray refers to. and my email is [email protected]
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
You'll get out there!
Sorry it hear it's going so busy!! You'll get out there when it's right!
I wish my buggy now was a runner like my first one was! 1800 L-jet and manual, but I think it might have had a polish in the heads since she would sing at high revs!! I was always amazed how hard I drove that car with three to two people and it flew and I dumped on the clutch and pedal! I guess when you really see the performance that was in the design of the 411/412 you appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship that made it possible! If you get to that point like some have, all the hard work pays off big time!ZZzzzzzzzzzzoooooooommmmmmm!!!................ I love the sound of the T4 motor at high revs....,lol! Have some fun now everyone!
bill
I wish my buggy now was a runner like my first one was! 1800 L-jet and manual, but I think it might have had a polish in the heads since she would sing at high revs!! I was always amazed how hard I drove that car with three to two people and it flew and I dumped on the clutch and pedal! I guess when you really see the performance that was in the design of the 411/412 you appreciate the engineering and craftsmanship that made it possible! If you get to that point like some have, all the hard work pays off big time!ZZzzzzzzzzzzoooooooommmmmmm!!!................ I love the sound of the T4 motor at high revs....,lol! Have some fun now everyone!
bill-
Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
OK, it is not the neutral safety switch!. I finally got to it thanks to vwbills emailing me the illustration. took ALL the covers off, found the switch, jumpered the 2 red wires, put her in N, and turned the ign. on, still nothing. But an interesting observation is that once I put the key in, a buzzer sounds and the "fasten seat belt" light comes on, even tho the seat belts are fastened! When I turn the key on, then to start, the light gets brighter. Is that another start interrupt switch? can I bypass it? And BTW, my starter relay is under the rear seat.
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
more Bill rambles!
Great! You found that switch Ray was talking about! Did you get to hear the sweet humm/buzz of the fuel pump cycling and the relay clicking?
If you turn the key on and go to the eng. compartment do you hear the fuel injectors buzz when you open the throttle by hand? So you just jumped the switch? Did your back up lights come on(did you need to do the wiggle to chk the bulb)? So You did make a difference by jumping the switch? Did you check the surface of the switch anyway to see if it was alignment of the plate/shift contact or surface corrosion? So you got a change when you jumped the switch! So if the fuel pump cycled on, you should hear it till pressure builds up and if you opened the test tee screw(fuel Rail ) and put a hose there to jar it should run.....) What happens if you pull the emergercy light button?!! So if the neutral switch has been bypassed and has made a change then it is now somewhere else...
Do you get a clicking of the starter relay or starter selenoid(on starter) trying to engage? So the four door has its relays under the back seat?
I have three relays in the engine compartment left. The ignition switch wire 50 current path is also broken at the safety belt warning sytem relay and then goes to the neutral swtich and then to the starter. It is a striped wire in the gray scale diagram. If the seat belt warning light is on then it looks like from the wiring to me that the seat belt relay is getting current?
If you turn on the key and plug in one of the seat belts and unplug it(if it was plugged into ground under the seat) then shouldnt you hear the seat belt relay click and could maybe find it or check it? If the starter is right and can be jumped to run and the selenoid and you hear the fuel pump run and you get juice at that starter wire(at the neutral switch) you jumped then the problem couldnt be the starter system!?? I'll ramble later hope this could help! Bill
If you turn the key on and go to the eng. compartment do you hear the fuel injectors buzz when you open the throttle by hand? So you just jumped the switch? Did your back up lights come on(did you need to do the wiggle to chk the bulb)? So You did make a difference by jumping the switch? Did you check the surface of the switch anyway to see if it was alignment of the plate/shift contact or surface corrosion? So you got a change when you jumped the switch! So if the fuel pump cycled on, you should hear it till pressure builds up and if you opened the test tee screw(fuel Rail ) and put a hose there to jar it should run.....) What happens if you pull the emergercy light button?!! So if the neutral switch has been bypassed and has made a change then it is now somewhere else...
Do you get a clicking of the starter relay or starter selenoid(on starter) trying to engage? So the four door has its relays under the back seat?
I have three relays in the engine compartment left. The ignition switch wire 50 current path is also broken at the safety belt warning sytem relay and then goes to the neutral swtich and then to the starter. It is a striped wire in the gray scale diagram. If the seat belt warning light is on then it looks like from the wiring to me that the seat belt relay is getting current?
If you turn on the key and plug in one of the seat belts and unplug it(if it was plugged into ground under the seat) then shouldnt you hear the seat belt relay click and could maybe find it or check it? If the starter is right and can be jumped to run and the selenoid and you hear the fuel pump run and you get juice at that starter wire(at the neutral switch) you jumped then the problem couldnt be the starter system!?? I'll ramble later hope this could help! Bill
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wildthings
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
Just an idea!!! Do you have the wires hooked up to the correct terminals on the starter solenoid? You probably have two 1/4 inch male spade terminals sticking out of the (front) end of the solenoid. One is the start circuit from the ignition switch or start safety, and one feeds out to one of the relays (I think). If the wires are switch which isn't hard to accidentally do, it won't crank and the fuel pump might not run. Different make solenoids have slight differences in the orientation of these terminals so its easy to get them switched.
What happens when you jump from the B+ post on the solenoid to each of the small spade terminals?
If every thing is right it should crank and maybe even start when you short to the correct spade terminal. Don't get run over by your own car while you are trying this, an automatic must be in Park and a manual must be in Neutral, also the Parking Brake must be set and your wheels blocked. Plus, don't accidentally let your jumper wire contact any possible ground. The wire to the B+ post is not fused and your jumper might well either blow up or melt down in your hands giving you severe burns and/or starting a fire. 
What happens when you jump from the B+ post on the solenoid to each of the small spade terminals?
If every thing is right it should crank and maybe even start when you short to the correct spade terminal. Don't get run over by your own car while you are trying this, an automatic must be in Park and a manual must be in Neutral, also the Parking Brake must be set and your wheels blocked. Plus, don't accidentally let your jumper wire contact any possible ground. The wire to the B+ post is not fused and your jumper might well either blow up or melt down in your hands giving you severe burns and/or starting a fire. -
vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Need a "Ray" I got it! LOL!
Funny thing? I was reading your past post and you said you hear the usual click of the relay. I know my fuel pump relay would stick and a little tap would help but that was just the pump side. Wildthing could be right wiht the wiring? I have to check that path and look at mine! I didnt think the one Wire that goes to the ECU from the starter selenoid matter just for knowing if there was juice so it will have shut off all but the juice available for the starter system???? So does the ignition switch send juice to the starter via the neutral switch via wire path 50 and energizes the seleniod till it gets back juice to open the selenoid? Bill
p.s. Sorry Longbeach for the ramble! I'm sure Ray would know now what is wrong! I looked at the wiring too and have a fog of knowledge now, LOL!
p.s.s. I sent you a pic of my selenoid longbeach.
p.s. Sorry Longbeach for the ramble! I'm sure Ray would know now what is wrong! I looked at the wiring too and have a fog of knowledge now, LOL!
p.s.s. I sent you a pic of my selenoid longbeach.
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
picture of Neutral Switch from Cylmers.
Picture from the Cylmers of auto shifter neutral switch..
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... 2wires.jpg
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... 2wires.jpg
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Picture of my 412 starter selenoid
Picture of starter selenoid...
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... %20060.jpg
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... %20060.jpg
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Picture of relay near master cylinder.
Picture of relay under master cylinder..
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... %20029.jpg
http://www.msnusers.com/4ktas9g8q2qqugn ... %20029.jpg
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Longbeach412
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:34 am
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67 T1
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:03 pm
Longbeach,
sorry I've not done like I told you I would, work has been a buster lately, have not even worked on my 412 in about two weeks.
Bottom line though, my 412 still with OE is a manual. So many of the suggestions that have been made would not apply to my car, ergo, I can be of no service to you. good luck though.
sorry I've not done like I told you I would, work has been a buster lately, have not even worked on my 412 in about two weeks.
Bottom line though, my 412 still with OE is a manual. So many of the suggestions that have been made would not apply to my car, ergo, I can be of no service to you. good luck though.