The 3 Liter goes on a diet, but gets stronger!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:51 pm

The TIV does not suffer from lifter bore failures, BUT over a period of 100K miles excess wear becomes an issue.

As far as the cost of the engine goes, the only thing in this combo that has cost has been the heads, rods and the Nickies cylinders- everything else is virtually the same cost as a TI. I have less than 10K in this combo even with the extreme parts.

As far as being too expensive, I don't believe so. If I were building engines with Chinese parts that took 8 hours to assemble, your opinion would be correct. It is my goal to create things for those who appreciate my efforts with R&D and quality development and I'm not giving the hours of my life to anyone.

I never have and never will compete with anyone on price alone, I'll close the doors to this shiop and go twist wrenchs on Turbine engines again before I'll do that.... We don't build a single engine that has less than 80 hours in it's creation.....

HotStreetVw · Post by **HotStreetVw** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:32 pm

I figured it was similar to the "super heros" that start at 20k plus the price of your new heads. But even 10k, i doubt you paid retail prices, and machine work, balance etc, was free.

At this point you dont need to "price match" or compete on price, your pretty much the only one. But with those prices you cant be serious about getting more guys exiced about the t4.

If I were you, I would be worried someone is ready to step up and start selling quality parts and engines at half the price. I already see parts poping up on the samba. Its only a matter of time.

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:The TIV does not suffer from lifter bore failures, BUT over a period of 100K miles excess wear becomes an issue.

As far as the cost of the engine goes, the only thing in this combo that has cost has been the heads, rods and the Nickies cylinders- everything else is virtually the same cost as a TI. I have less than 10K in this combo even with the extreme parts.

As far as being too expensive, I don't believe so. If I were building engines with Chinese parts that took 8 hours to assemble, your opinion would be correct. It is my goal to create things for those who appreciate my efforts with R&D and quality development and I'm not giving the hours of my life to anyone.

I never have and never will compete with anyone on price alone, I'll close the doors to this shiop and go twist wrenchs on Turbine engines again before I'll do that.... We don't build a single engine that has less than 80 hours in it's creation.....

Kelley · Post by **Kelley** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:39 pm

HotStreetVw wrote:At this point you dont need to "price match" or compete on price, your pretty much the only one. But with those prices you cant be serious about getting more guys exiced about the t4.

If I were you, I would be worried someone is ready to step up and start selling quality parts and engines at half the price. I already see parts poping up on the samba. Its only a matter of time.

If it was easy, or cheap, everybody would be doing what Jake is doing. Like the "shadow" tried to do.

Example; the T-1 aftermarket. Some stuff is good, most of it's shitty.

I'm all for it, Jake, cant wait to see the results since I cant make dyno day this year.

HotStreetVw · Post by **HotStreetVw** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:03 pm

The "shadow" was a CRIMINAL. He stole an original idea and tried to sell it as his own. He also sold crap and ripped off customers.

What happens when someone with ethics gets involved?

iamstumper · Post by **iamstumper** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:07 pm

Between this and your forced induction projects, you have my head spinning!

I was already trying to figure out how to persuade my wife to agree to something more radical (keep in mind my overall priority is daily driver - but how far can that be pushed???) ... now with these latest two developments (forced induction and 2.8L) ....

Between the 2 hours sleep and reading these topics ... all I can think of is "mmmm More power!" <-- Think Tim the Toolman Taylor (Tim Allen) hehe Not to be confused with more ###hp .... I'll be going purely by the seat of my pants!

Either way, I can't wait to hear the results to both of these .... and how it will affect my project when it's my turn on the list

Well, guess I should clarify that one .... ~if~ it affects my project that is!

Sorry for the rambling post ... did I mention 2 hours sleep?! But I had a quick question to follow up with:

I still think the overriding questions will be my balancing the daily driver + (my wanting) performance. Do either of these developments change your opinion of what "combination" will fit that bill?

I'm pretty sure that's a vague question (at best) and my purpose was to express my excitement at what you are currently developing!

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:16 pm

If I were you, I would be worried someone is ready to step up and start selling quality parts and engines at half the price. I already see parts poping up on the samba. Its only a matter of time.

Thats the best thing that could happen and it has ben something I have looked forward to for a very long time. I have been working to get this conversion "that popular" for a solid 10 years now.

I'm not woried that someone will do this at all because that will certainly make my complete engines even more sought after. It would take a very dedicated individual to succeed at any attempt such as this and I welcome them to the arena, should they decide to do so.

My engine shop will never be about big numbers of engines, that becomes mass production and something I care nothing about. My retail entity, the Type 4 Store has already dropped prices on many items and with the newer low cost items and a list of authorized assemblers more people are experiencing an engine with my inspiration than ever before.

The goal for the engine shop is to DO LESS engines every year and have their specialization and detail increase each year with developments. If I had 10 employees as dedicated as Brent and I are that would not steal my thoughts and carry them down the road the mission of the engine shop might be diferent- but that will never happen.

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:43 pm

And "Jake Empi" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Jake Raby"...

HotStreetVw · Post by **HotStreetVw** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:39 pm

I see, Jake wants to become the Shelby Lingenfelter Roush for the VW world. More power to him. I just want to see someone come in an alternative thats more affordable, so guys like me can afford one.

Stripped66 wrote:And "Jake Empi" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Jake Raby"...

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:55 pm

If you have a tool box you already can... Unless that is, you desire 220HP.

BTW- I have no desire to be anything other than a person that creates super engines for those who believe in and share his enthusiasm with the heritage of the aircooled engine...

OriginalCustoms · Post by **OriginalCustoms** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:17 pm

HotStreetVw wrote:If I were you, I would be worried someone is ready to step up and start selling quality parts and engines at half the price. I already see parts poping up on the samba. Its only a matter of time.

I agree with Jake's response above, AAAAND, by working with build shops like mine, Jake gets to a) promote the Type IV and therefore increase his customer base and b) sell more kits which makes him a couple of $ and reduces costs because of quantity orders. Win-Win.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:05 am

Exactly...With guys like Mark and Dave @ DTM Engineering working with me we have been able to get people an engine that will get the job done they desire without having to make them wait for months or pay for our detailed assembly and dyno work.

As we develop more products like the "Econo header" and it's version with heaterboxes, our Turbo kits and etc the deand grows and with demand comes volume sales and cheaper prices.

If you want TIV prices to drop, spread the word about the conversion to everyone you can- thats how it will become "affordable"

FYI- it cost more FIVE YEARS AGO to build a medium displacement TIV engine to 150HP than it does today- as much as 20% more according to the parts that are utilized

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:51 pm

Ephry73 wrote:-----------
Hmmm, I wonder if this means that in the future you will also
have a Massive Type 4 block with more of a drop between crank
center mains and cam center mains, to allow for more stroke and
cam sizes.

E

That would be robbing Peter, to pay Paul.
Dropping the cam means MORE one-off parts and a heavier
valvetrain.....

Also, High lift is like high RPM, it's gonna cost you something, usually longevity of parts!

Now Jake's(and HAM's) attitude is this, make MORE power in the RPM
band that the engine will reliably run in, and you're on to something then!

And that is what he has been doing..........

Don

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:20 pm

HotStreetVw wrote:Jake. Whats the stock ratio(rocker) for a type 4?

I'm not Jake, and I haven't measured as many as he has, but I
don't think he caught your query.

I've found that the intakes are very close to 1.3:1 and the exh are
about 1.25:1.

Don

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:01 pm

[quote="dstar
Also, High lift is like high RPM, it's gonna cost you something, usually longevity of parts!

Now Jake's(and HAM's) attitude is this, make MORE power in the RPM
band that the engine will reliably run in, and you're on to something then!

And that is what he has been doing..........

Don[/quote]

Part of the reason for dropping 200cc was to allow more lift. An aftermarket case would allow room for a big crank AND a big cam. I just say this because I would like to see a new case just to insure we will still be in business when the cores run out. The bottm line question isn't whether or not it is VW or Porsch or whatever. The question is " is it bad and is it aircooled" I would love to see Jake develope his OWN air cooled engine with all his own parts, or parts made for him.

The 2.8 sounds like a good idea to me. Everyone has their own tastes in power bands. Torque is essential, but it is nice to rev too!

The longer you can keep the torque to the rear wheels, the wilder the ride.

Ron

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:21 pm

I know Don means well, and he's not posting on here to get his numbers up

. He does have a point, however, if you design an engine with the case in mind, then you can work with the tolerances necessary to make sure the engien lives and performs well. I love the 2.8 idea, and I think it's great, and definitely doable.

A case with more clearance between the crank and camshaft has been created a long time ago for the type 1. I kinda looks like a type4 case on steroyds.

E