Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:19 am
by Chip Birks
Well it all looks incredible. Hopefully the oil pressure stuff is a simple fix. Glad to hear that you are to the point of firing things in the car. That's a huge step in the right direction!
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:33 am
by Bruce.m
When you say you sealed the pump to the case with RTV did you mean the outside face of the case or the bore inside? I wouldn’t use RTV any place where there is a risk of a lump will get loose inside the engine. I used a Loctite product which only sets if no air present & gets dissolved in the oil if it gets loose.
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:02 pm
by split1950
Thanks for the advice.
I pulled the pump and cleaned the surfaces.
I put it in the freezer for half a day then put some permatex around the case to pump bore and on the gasket then popped it back in and torqued it down again. I'll try it again after the fittings I ordered turn up I have another oil tank to try too.
There's so much custom stuff I suppose so trouble was inevitable.
The Haltech stuff is awesome and their customer service is impeccable they've helped me with set up issues.
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:12 pm
by Wally
The TP dry-sump pump surely is not the culprit here, of that I’am very sure.
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:39 pm
by split1950
Wally wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:12 pm
The TP dry-sump pump surely is not the culprit here, of that I’am very sure.
Yeah I just maybe didn't use the right stuff to seal it into the case.
What I don't understand is where the pressure is going away.
The cam wasn't line bored but I remember the bearings were a snug fit.
The turbo feed is an4 off the pressure switch and the return to the tuna can. Surely that is not it?
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Wally wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:12 pm
The TP dry-sump pump surely is not the culprit here, of that I’am very sure.
Yeah I just maybe didn't use the right stuff to seal it into the case.
What I don't understand is where the pressure is going away.
The cam wasn't line bored but I remember the bearings were a snug fit.
The turbo feed is an4 off the pressure switch and the return to the tuna can. Surely that is not it?
I agree, that has little impact either.
Seems things change when the engine warms-up, so I would look at that oil path.
We cannot look in there and don’t know how much experience you have with building a type 4.
Maybe just backtrack your Assembly steps in the basic build stuff wrt oil routing inside the case.
GL!
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Wally wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:12 pm
The TP dry-sump pump surely is not the culprit here, of that I’am very sure.
Yeah I just maybe didn't use the right stuff to seal it into the case.
What I don't understand is where the pressure is going away.
The cam wasn't line bored but I remember the bearings were a snug fit.
The turbo feed is an4 off the pressure switch and the return to the tuna can. Surely that is not it?
I agree, that has little impact either.
Seems things change when the engine warms-up, so I would look at that oil path.
We cannot look in there and don’t know how much experience you have with building a type 4.
Maybe just backtrack your Assembly steps in the basic build stuff wrt oil routing inside the case.
GL!
I never built an engine before....but I had a lot of help / advice from Stateside tuning. They inspected and machined the case and supplied the parts. I assembled it really.
I changed nothing inside the case wrt oil path, I mean that TP oil pump isn't a true dry sump system it's a hybrid I suppose as I put 3.5L of oil in the engine and 5L in the tank.
So I'm going to try to lose the AN10 banjo on the output of the oil pump back to the tank for at least an AN12 or some kind of bend, it's really restricted due to the location of the compressor housing.
I used a CSP oil filter bypass, can't be that....took it off and checked not blocked / upside down.
I have a Tangerine racing oil pressure relief valve in case it was the bore, that helped but not enough.
I have heard there can be problems with the O ring on the oil pickup tube, I'm sure I put some Curil K2 on that when I popped it in. Of course now its impossible to look in there as you said.
So I'm doing everything I can before I have to pull the engine and open it (again).
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 2:57 am
by Eddie010
Looks awesome, sorry to hear about the oil issue.
Good luck
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:55 am
by Wally
split1950 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:02 am
I have a Tangerine racing oil pressure relief valve in case it was the bore, that helped but not enough.
.
Not familiar with that item. Could you reverse to the stock items as much as possible?
With the Thosten Pieper dry-sump oil pump (its not a hybrid pump by the way, its full dry-sump period) you really don't need any "pressure relief" items..
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:42 am
by split1950
Yes I am going back to stock as much as I can.
The idea was incase the bore for the relief valve was leaking down, the Tangerine racing item is a slide in valve with an O ring on the top then has a slightly stiffer spring inside.
I am also changing the pipe size on the return to the oil tank from -10 to -12 as I have a banjo I want to minimise flow restriction.
On the pump, my bad, I was told by Stateside that I have to put 3.5L of oil into the engine then 5L in the tank. I had put oil only in the tank.....but I did crank until oil pressure before I tried to run it.
What I worry about is you can never know how much oil is in the engine, I guess that level changes a lot so I have a big enough tank for all of the oil just in case!
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:11 am
by Wally
split1950 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:42 am
.. the Tangerine racing item is a slide in valve with an O ring on the top then has a slightly stiffer spring inside.
I hate 'slightly stiffer springs' anywhere in the oil system... it mostly messes up oil temperatures or pressure or so it seems.
Very interested if removing this will alter things pressure wise in your case (pun intended).
I am also changing the pipe size on the return to the oil tank from -10 to -12 as I have a banjo I want to minimise flow restriction.
That really isn't neccesary as the suckion side only pushes out low pressure and AN10 is big enough. I ran 12-13mm (AN8-ish) for years without issue, now run AN10 for piece of mind, but only my intake oil side (feed) has always been AN12 because it comes from all the way from the front where my oil tank is located. Low restriction is only important on the feed side imo.
All this (AN sizes) won't make a difference at all in your oil pressure though.
On the pump, my bad, I was told by Stateside that I have to put 3.5L of oil into the engine then 5L in the tank. I had put oil only in the tank.....but I did crank until oil pressure before I tried to run it.
What I worry about is you can never know how much oil is in the engine, I guess that level changes a lot so I have a big enough tank for all of the oil just in case!
Never heard of needing oil in the engine case before cranking. Both gears are lubricated in the pump since the feed line presses a little oil in there (both sides are not "sealed" from each other or so), but it can't hurt. 3,5 ltr is a bit much though, but again, it doesn't hurt untill you don't hydrolock it.
You really don't need to know the oil level in your case! Its a dry-sump system: You need to know the level in your oil tank!!
There will always be about 1,5 ltr in your sump since the pick-up is slightly above ground zero in the case. Thats normal. And if you don't close the feed after running the engine, the case will fill itself untill its level with the oil tank. You don't want that, so close the feed after driving and don't forget to open it when starting again
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
split1950 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:42 am
.. the Tangerine racing item is a slide in valve with an O ring on the top then has a slightly stiffer spring inside.
I hate 'slightly stiffer springs' anywhere in the oil system... it mostly messes up oil temperatures or pressure or so it seems.
Very interested if removing this will alter things pressure wise in your case (pun intended).
I am also changing the pipe size on the return to the oil tank from -10 to -12 as I have a banjo I want to minimise flow restriction.
That really isn't neccesary as the suckion side only pushes out low pressure and AN10 is big enough. I ran 12-13mm (AN8-ish) for years without issue, now run AN10 for piece of mind, but only my intake oil side (feed) has always been AN12 because it comes from all the way from the front where my oil tank is located. Low restriction is only important on the feed side imo.
All this (AN sizes) won't make a difference at all in your oil pressure though.
On the pump, my bad, I was told by Stateside that I have to put 3.5L of oil into the engine then 5L in the tank. I had put oil only in the tank.....but I did crank until oil pressure before I tried to run it.
What I worry about is you can never know how much oil is in the engine, I guess that level changes a lot so I have a big enough tank for all of the oil just in case!
Never heard of needing oil in the engine case before cranking. Both gears are lubricated in the pump since the feed line presses a little oil in there (both sides are not "sealed" from each other or so), but it can't hurt. 3,5 ltr is a bit much though, but again, it doesn't hurt untill you don't hydrolock it.
You really don't need to know the oil level in your case! Its a dry-sump system: You need to know the level in your oil tank!!
There will always be about 1,5 ltr in your sump since the pick-up is slightly above ground zero in the case. Thats normal. And if you don't close the feed after running the engine, the case will fill itself untill its level with the oil tank. You don't want that, so close the feed after driving and don't forget to open it when starting again
I think the only smart thing I've done seems to be the kill switch on the oil feed shut off valve linked to the Haltech - impossible to crank or run the engine unless it is open.
I realise the AN sizes don't help the pressure, but whilst I'm "here" I am doing these things, AN12 should fit on the return, so nothing to lose, I'm already -12 on the feed side. I'm also moving my tank up front and will get a proper designed round one.
I am concerned about this oil pressure being low, with the stock valve after 2 mins its 20psi @ 2K rpm. I keep trying to find out the cause......
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:13 am
by Wally
Btw, 1,5 bar hot at just 2K I would say is not extremely low.
As long as its 3 bar or (a little) more at higher RPM’s, you’re good. The internal releave valve in the type 4 case keeps it sane in most all situations.
At least, thats my experience.
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:07 am
by split1950
So I resealed the oil pump with Permatex / freezer and used a borrowed "proper" dry sump tank and 20W/50 oil.
Cold / Warm / Hot ish (I can't touch the tank)
1000rpm 42psi 18psi 8psi
2000rpm 61psi 35psi 15psi
3000rpm 61psi 47psi 25psi
It all seems low to me.
I have plenty of oil in the tank, I'd say the scavenge took a lot of the 3.5 litres out of the case.
The frustration is I have got it running quite decent on the Haltech with not a lot of effort, so this is a huge step backwards.
bearing clearance issue as it heats up?
I took this video for the hell of it, enjoy!
Re: 2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:17 am
by V8Nate
I had a similar experience with my stroker(wet sump) I put a gb o-ringed oil pump in it and that bumped my pressure upto a minimum of 13psi per 1k rpm even at 240° F
