2270cc type 4 EFI Turbo: my first engine build

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Also, whilst I'm "in there" is my turbo oil drain to Tuna can OK?
I used AN10 PTFE. It goes downhill to the Tuna can.
But, isn't the Tuna can the lowest point of the oil pan even despite dry sump it won't be empty?
Would a 3/8 NPT banjo to AN10 survive on the centre housing (heat?)? That way I could tap into the side of the sump.

I'd like to hear from people using the Tuna can rather than an opinion if possible

Whoof! Just for clarification before I posted anything, I looked up the term "AN10" and got several answers also 10ANs (something different). One version got coverage started in something like 1959 but I think the AN series I am use to is much older than that (not 100% on that either). Anyway, what they are describing is a lot of different things including bent tube (like gas and oil tubes), different types of fasteners and things like Airplanes.

Lee

If you are using the slang term "AN10" for a 90-degree fitting (the cast version of the MIL-spec [there is more coding involved other than just the "AN10" name) which I think, along with the pretty braided fuel line was designed back in the early days of jet engines and I think maybe in bombers during WW2. Hotrodders got involved with the term (and use) during the Korean war (if I remember correctly). I got into the terms in the mid-60s then into the detail of the MIL specs in the mid-60s.

If you are using short lengths of the braided fuel line you should be OK for show, not so for long line (say the length of the pan up to the engine because it, like the rubber tube fuel line (both can age quickly and start to sag between clamps allowing the potential of gas air to collect there) but not so well for the longer run. The rubber can fail also over time.

The fitting would have more coding to it but if the "AN10" (et al) follows the specs I had to deal with the 10 stands for 5/8" line (coded in 16ths of an inch or 20 in 32ths of an inch MIL specs).

I hope this is somewhat clear.

Lee

[split1950]

Also, whilst I'm "in there" is my turbo oil drain to Tuna can OK?
I used AN10 PTFE. It goes downhill to the Tuna can.
But, isn't the Tuna can the lowest point of the oil pan even despite dry sump it won't be empty?
Would a 3/8 NPT banjo to AN10 survive on the centre housing (heat?)? That way I could tap into the side of the sump.

I'd like to hear from people using the Tuna can rather than an opinion if possible

Whoof! Just for clarification before I posted anything, I looked up the term "AN10" and got several answers also 10ANs (something different). One version got coverage started in something like 1959 but I think the AN series I am use to is much older than that (not 100% on that either). Anyway, what they are describing is a lot of different things including bent tube (like gas and oil tubes), different types of fasteners and things like Airplanes.

Lee

If you are using the slang term "AN10" for a 90-degree fitting (the cast version of the MIL-spec [there is more coding involved other than just the "AN10" name) which I think, along with the pretty braided fuel line was designed back in the early days of jet engines and I think maybe in bombers during WW2. Hotrodders got involved with the term (and use) during the Korean war (if I remember correctly). I got into the terms in the mid-60s then into the detail of the MIL specs in the mid-60s.

If you are using short lengths of the braided fuel line you should be OK for show, not so for long line (say the length of the pan up to the engine because it, like the rubber tube fuel line (both can age quickly and start to sag between clamps allowing the potential of gas air to collect there) but not so well for the longer run. The rubber can fail also over time.

The fitting would have more coding to it but if the "AN10" (et al) follows the specs I had to deal with the 10 stands for 5/8" line (coded in 16ths of an inch or 20 in 32ths of an inch MIL specs).

I hope this is somewhat clear.

Lee

I am sorry maybe I didn't explain well.
Using AN10 PTFE / braided type short piece from Turbo drain into Tuna can.
I had assumed the suction from the dry sump pump would help evacuate the oil drain line. My concern is in effect I put the oil return to the lowest part of the oil pan.
I thought Walter was doing this way, just would be grateful if someone is and can vouch it is OK.
I am looking at tapping the side of the sump but the AN10 fitting on the turbo is tricky to be compact enough to still have the line going down hill.
Banjo is OK, if Viton O rings can survive the centre housing heat (not water cooled, obs....).
I ordered few different types on AN10 last night just in case something is compact enough and the Tuna can won't fly.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I wasn't jumping on you just trying to get something meaningless clarified (again). This was the latest of many times I have covered this over the years I have been on STF.

The term "AN10" is an old term that means nothing as the rest of the code is missing. The old "slang term" is being still used as a specific thing which it isn't. I was just trying to clarify that it means nothing and shouldn't be used.

After something like 40 years of dealing with Military specs and correcting/verifying the coding at work as well as design and presentation (I was not an engineer but a Tech designer/checker, et al, at The Boeing Company) I still react to the non-meaning shortcut that is used. The mil-specs are coded with the longest part number coding I remember being 17 or 18 symbols long (letters, numbers. dashes and maybe more) which, in themselves, does the design for the people who manufacture them and those who need to know the design and limitations (design and use).

The design numbers after (for example but there are several other Mil Specs) are now into 4 digits for the sequential designs. The "10" (dia.) would be farther down in the design/material part of the code then you have many other important coding such as manufacturing processes and protective covering of the part for example. If I remember correctly the base coding may not be for hard part but something else.

When I did a search to see what is going on now days (after some of the dialogue I saw on STF) I was surprised that the slang part number has been miss-used especially "off-shore" so it even means less now days.

Again, I apologize.

Lee

[split1950]

I wasn't jumping on you just trying to get something meaningless clarified (again). This was the latest of many times I have covered this over the years I have been on STF.

The term "AN10" is an old term that means nothing as the rest of the code is missing. The old "slang term" is being still used as a specific thing which it isn't. I was just trying to clarify that it means nothing and shouldn't be used.

After something like 40 years of dealing with Military specs and correcting/verifying the coding at work as well as design and presentation (I was not an engineer but a Tech designer/checker, et al, at The Boeing Company) I still react to the non-meaning shortcut that is used. The mil-specs are coded with the longest part number coding I remember being 17 or 18 symbols long (letters, numbers. dashes and maybe more) which, in themselves, does the design for the people who manufacture them and those who need to know the design and limitations (design and use).

The design numbers after (for example but there are several other Mil Specs) are now into 4 digits for the sequential designs. The "10" (dia.) would be farther down in the design/material part of the code then you have many other important coding such as manufacturing processes and protective covering of the part for example. If I remember correctly the base coding may not be for hard part but something else.

When I did a search to see what is going on now days (after some of the dialogue I saw on STF) I was surprised that the slang part number has been miss-used especially "off-shore" so it even means less now days.

Again, I apologize.

Lee

Dude, I'm an Electronics / SW engineer, so I should know better. I maybe should have said 5/8 pipe lol (although we use mm.........aha ha ha).
The question still stands, the pipe from A to B is going to work or the principle is all wrong?

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Interesting! I only worked directly with electrical Engineers a couple of times. Their language (the same words sometimes different meanings) and needs are often much different than mechanical engineers or even manufacturing engineers. Been there, done that!

Usually (for example), it involved adding new electrical boxes in the floors and side walls when additional electrical needs had met their distances and needed more electronics due to passenger seating additions (e.g., MUX boxes). (MUX means Music and Entertainment with the addition of or moving the seats closer together or farther apart which required the required the movingg of the overhead emergency requirements [emergency oxygen mask drops for example).

If the tube has a bend in it, then you could have the potential for some restrictions (albeit probably minor due to the amount of usage of the liquid) in it due to the changing of direction and pressures that probably are/will be involved. Bend radiuses in tubes are interesting to deal with especially when bending tube vs. castings as the inside radius of the bend has quick limitations and the outside radius stretches and then the potential of oblong Ing the bend "pinching of the diameter". That is why the casting version (vs. the bent tube) is usually used when going from the source of the liquid to the end user.

Again, I don't recommend using soft and pretty pipe in long runs due to the potential ups and down of the tube as it ages in long runs.

Oh, and I did get assigned to several engineers from England plus dealing with engineers from Germany and even Luxenberg (spelling?). Assignment to an engineer could be for less than an hour or up to months to years. Along with the changing of meaning of words around the US plus body and facial language that changed meanings, I did learn about hand gestures also for example.

Life isn't always easy is it.

Lee

[Piledriver]

Teflon is technically OK to ~400F but I wold probably look for an aluminum, brass or SS part for those fittings attaching to the block, esp with hot return oil that can easily push 300F. Teflon gets pretty soft and flexi at 200F... at best it gets leaky. At worst it falls off.

Aluminum galls on aluminum, SS fittings want to become one part. Brass fittings with either al or SS are fine. (at least Naval brass, the recent Chinesium versions you get at hodepot YMMV)

PTFE starts decomposing at 450F... One of its components if fluorine... very, very bad juju.

[split1950]

Small Friday update.....
With -0.25mm mains and STD rod bearings everything has been checked to be in tolerance.
I scored some OEM KS big end bearings, the Silverline mains set we "found" a set sized nicely for the crank after going through a few boxes.
Bottom end is back together up to needing to be the putting the barrels and pistons and heads on.
I'm going for a deck height of 1.5mm giving me 7.9:1 CR with 0.25mm under barrel shims + 1mm copper gaskets in the heads (I had been on 7.7:1 but I think it was a bit low)
I hope to do #1 and #2 tonight although its 30C here I'm having motivational issues.....I might have a BBQ instead
Anyway I'm optimistic I'm on the home stretch!

[split1950]

Well it worked out mostly OK......

IMG-20231104-WA0000.jpeg

The first run I got a small amount of oil come out between the engine and gearbox, and behind the crank pulley (both were new Elring seals as were ALL of them), but it never did it again. I can only assume it "farted" before the oil pressure relief valve kicked in.....I have another new seal just in case for when I put it together for the final time (body shell needs to go to paint soon). I had used Loctite (577) thread sealer on the gallery plugs just like before, I can't imagine its those, I triple checked everything.

IMG-20231104-WA0002.jpeg

A lot of rework on dry sump tank, oil lines, brackets etc.
AN12 hard lines front to back

20231115_152135.jpg

AN12 hard line then flex into TP oil pump. It is higher than the gearbox front mount and other stuff....I can't make the pics not upside down!

20231115_152240.jpg

20231115_152252.jpg

20231115_154726.jpg

New dry sump tank in the front (14L). It needed a lot of "notching" to give 10mm ish gap to everything. Thank you Steve!! My homemade bracket needs some dimple dies or something so it doesn't look like I cut 3mm Ali sheet in my garage.

IMG-20231114-WA0002.jpeg

Oil tank breather into nice billet catch can with filter inside, dumps outside next to the front mounted oil cooler (took inspiration from my motorbike)

IMG-20231114-WA0000.jpeg

Now I ordered some EMPI 4340 race drive shafts and T2 bus CVs (the 944S2 CVs are 25 tooth spline and so gotta go).
So far the oil cooler is not getting warm despite 95C oil according to the ECU, so I bought a laser thermometer thing (waiting for it, thanks Amazon....). I put the little thermostat out of the oil filter head into a cup of boiling water and it opened, so maybe I didn't leave it long enough. I suppose idling I can't expect the oil to really get hot. I'll keep testing, worse case change it for a separate oil filter head and thermostat but I prefer not do do this 3 times.

[split1950]

[Wally]

Awesome milestone!

[split1950]

Awesome milestone!

Yeah!!
I think until you've done it you never know the feeling. I only had an e brake so it was scary / could have gone bad quickly, so I just turned it around in my street.
The rear is totally too low, the engine bar is 50mm off the floor, it won't even get off the drive without scraping.
Despite the biggest 944 torsion bars I underestimated the preload you need on the spring plates.....I think I need to go up 75 ~ 100mm! I guess I'll need a tool to get the plates on.

[Eddie010]

Cool, congrats.

[Chip Birks]

Congrats! This is awesome! Finally makes everything feel real.

[split1950]

Congrats! This is awesome! Finally makes everything feel real.

Thanks Chip.
I think I'll have fun and games setting my rear ride height with the 944S2 A arms (cut / modified) I seriously underestimated the preload needed even with the thickest torsion bars that many people told me would be too stiff etc etc, they really are not as the 915 trans, Quaiffe LSD (really heavy compared to stock one), and the type 4 engine / turbo all load it up.

I'm going to calculate what spring plate angle I need based on desired ride height then work backward to the angle of the plates before I twist the torsion bars / get them up onto the chassis stops (I see there's a tool for pulling them up). I think I'll leave that until the body gets back from paint.

In the meantime I need to mount a chargecooler radiator and pump, and do a few small other jobs to complete the mockup.
To say I'm excited is an understatement. I feel like I achieved something that I've never done before and its turned out pretty good for a first timer.

[Chip Birks]

Honestly, ride height isn't that tricky. You just have to have the initial loaded baseline (which you now have), and then adjust from there. There are charts out the that show how far adjusting each tooth (inner or outer or combo of both) will shift ride height. You know where it is now, just do the simple math to get where you want it to be and adjust. Were you already close to the stops with your current ride height. There is no preload on my bars and the car sits exactly where I want it. I do have a lot more tire diameter than you do though. Mine are 26 inches, yours look closer to 23" or 24". That obviously isn't helping your ground clearance issue either, and may justify preload compared to the setup I have.

I think folks make bar recommendations based on building potato chip race cars, those of us with these heavy turbo'd street cars can get away with a ton more bar than generally recommended. My car had 29mm bars and the ride was not stiff at all. If anything, I probably should have gone with 30mm bars but at the time they weren't available.

This is a good stage to be at, fabrication is fun and all, but it's satisfying to be at the assembly and adjustment stage too. Almost there! Are you going with a similar color to what you have on there now?