Synthetic Brake Fluid

[Piledriver]

How about "spongy pedal" syndrome?
(seems like braided SS hoses would counter that)

I could be convinced... I have (like most) steered clear of DOT5 due to old horror stories (of dubious provenance)
I suspect I'd have to upgrade to a rubber isolated fluid storage setup, sealed from air.

OTOH if dot5 really preserves the hydraulics that well, I could see going there.
(I have replaced entire brake systems preemptively because I can't remember when I changed them last... that could get expensive as my hair gets thinner. )

...but not on a race car.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

One of the big drawbacks to braided hoses is that they are hard to check for what the inside is doing; e.g., is the inside coming apart, swelling or what ever. I have used them once or twice but now shy away from them. Where I worked they had specific use: usually around abrasion sensitive areas as protection but you can also get 'spiked' by them when they starts to fray.

I think I still have a pair of rear brake lines somewhere but I doubt I will ever use them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5

Where I have picked up moisture in the brake lines is in the joints, in my case it was the connections to the turning brake. After a new turning brake assembly with a brass angle adapter the problem largely went away. Being from coastal regions and riding on ocean beaches the problem can be exacerbated by all the moisture in the air.

I live close enough to an airport so when the jets fly over with the flaps down you can often see moisture trails/tails, 5' or more long, hanging from the sides of each of the flaps. This comes over our house on a pretty regular basis and does come over low enough to see the vapor trails. Very impressive and quieter than one would expect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747 ... _Freighter

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial ... ifter.page

[buildabiggerboxer]

^^^^^^this^^^^. I avoid them like the plaque, they make the system difficult, if not impossible to trouble shoot, you can't clamp them, and the soft pedal improvement quotes are largely advertising, has anyone REALLY had problems with rubber hoses, all the problems I see come with braided, leaks and tear outs at the olives, admittedly because they are now in the hands of 'enthusiast' assembly more than before! but you won't see braided on most 'super cars because rubber can't be faulted. Having belittled braided, I run a full set on my current track car because needs must, but it's still a mare to work on the system even in the 'shop, in the field it could cost you an event, and the padal is no firmer for them, ie, it was good on rubber, I just have a home brewed system now, one off calipers, brackets, under trays etc etc.

[Piledriver]

Mmmm...My 914 sure liked the (clear plastic coated, DOT) braided SS lines I put on it.

The lines I replaced were ~new (admittedly generic) stock replacement rubber lines, the difference was almost night and day, esp with the larger calipers up front and fronts swapped out back. It Stopped. Well.

Not just psychological... Very noticable.

I have not once, ever, had the desire or need to clamp off a brake line.
Why would you consider doing that?

[Steve Arndt]

The new rubber lines swell shut in short time nowadays. I hope my teflon braided lines last a long time. The rubber that aftermarket vw parts are made of just isn't good like the olden days.

[buildabiggerboxer]

Hi Pile, Clamping is a common enough workshop practice used to trouble shoot brake systems, all pro shops do it, my pro clamps are supplied by Girling who make hi performance brake hoses, a quick common example is seized alloy rear calipers on new generation FWD European models, clamping off the opposite side to the cars drift direction pin points it. Sometimes it's usefull to isolate front from rear circuits to pin point problems. I've seen a fair few brake fires at the tracks when fluid has dripped on red hot brake parts during hurried repairs, we can't clamp braided lines, I know you can plug them yes, but it's open to the problem above at some point when it's all red hot. I think with your improvement on the switch to braided, there was a previous problem in there that got cleared up with the new hoses and re bleeding with fresh fluid, I've not had a higher pedal on many many race cars swopped to braided hoses from rubber, Rubber is still the best for road cars, they can be checked with nothing hidden under the braid, they are good enough for the worlds very fastest super cars after all. Best regards BBB.

[Piledriver]

Hmmm...Perhaps it would pay to tool up to make your own hoses using proper Goodyear or [edit] Goodridge line.
As Steve noted, you really cannot tell what you are getting at the parts store, you must assume it all comes from China or India or some such.

Anyone know of a source of the uncrimped ends? (factory not AN)

I need an excuse to buy or make another die or two for my hydraulic AC line crimper setup.

[buildabiggerboxer]

You are Dead right, the one BAD thing about the VW side of my shop I hate, is poor quality parts! rubber especially, from brake hoses to fuel hose, even T25 filler neck grommets, all rot out in just a few short years when the o/e did 35/40 years , some, like brake and fuel hose are downright dangerous, it IS possible to find quality, but that's added hours to the average job time allowance, but hey, off topic I go...

[Ol'fogasaurus]

If you were to make your own lines you would still have to worry about the "stock" you are using. W/o getting in to the specs (mainly 'cause I don't have access to them anymore) what is coming into the country now is not always to the specs we have/or "contract" to.

I have heard a lot of rumblings about this from two different directions. One being that off-shore specs are usually going to be different... hence (usually) cheaper and then there is the problem of big business giving out government secrets (unknowingly/uncaringly) in their contracts. I'm not sure about SAE but fed standards are another problem. I think this is also part of the problems that the German OEM parts makers are having too as I have heard that they are off-loading off-shore too.

Lee

[Piledriver]

I would only bother using Goodyear or Goodrich hose (possibly Gates, not sure if they make it)
Everything else is a mystery.

I suspect finding the ends will be the more difficult task unless I develop a taste for "AN" or hydraulic fittings for brakes, not sure that is kosher, or sane. It might be perfectly acceptable, haven't researched it.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I would suspect that your choices for material is probably good; just make sure it meets the proper codes.

As far as AN goes: if you can guarentee it is the real thing then yes but I would be very suspect as there are things being brought it that are being passed off as AN (Army Navy) that is suspect. AN has become a generic word like Jello, Kleenex or Manx which may cover a lot of area other than the original product. If you have ever seen the specification for AN or any other military standards, they are quite involved and usually cover many specifications for materials and how to do things. One of the reasons they are expensive! SAE is another thing but it also may be in the same boat as far as being downgraded by importing or outsourcing.

I wish I had better news on this but what is is what is; e.g., change for the sake of change is not change.

Lee

"A hole has been found in the nudist camp wall. The police are looking into it." (Punny isn't it )

[buildabiggerboxer]

Hmmm...Perhaps it would pay to tool up to make your own hoses using proper Goodyear or [edit] Goodridge line.
As Steve noted, you really cannot tell what you are getting at the parts store, you must assume it all comes from China or India or some such.

This COULD be the way forward, but here is something scary that happened very recently, not once but twice, these two events would finish lesser folk than the one that actually suffered them, both emotionally and certainly financially, it concerned a top turbo saloon race car and driver, the car caught fire due to split fuel hoses, it was repaired after the first blaze only to suffer the same fate a bit later, the hose concerned was a top name brand supplier, but in short, it was strongly believed to be a case of a brand rip off. I've also specified and bought "cohline" branded fuel hose, the best, only for it to be so poor quality, it could only have been a rip off brand. Luckily those concerned never caught fire and I got it changed on those concerned, but it was just that, luck that they were not on a long freeway trip with high temperature motors.

[BS&E]

Hey
This is my first post in here
Doing motorcycles as a trade I have a comment or 2
Always use braided steel lines cause they dont go apart in in the layers as rubber does w age , they reduce the volume of fluid and do not flex under pressure as FJCamper noticed
Do newer use dot 5 where dot 3/4 ( both ways ) are recommended because it diteriorates your system alone and blended
As the best use dot 5.1 .
We have sometimes repaired sloppy brakes by changing to 5.1 and several times a bad hydraulic clutch system are good again by going to 5.1
We did use all these things in the IDM bike series when engagede there

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"Always use braided steel lines cause they dont go apart in in the layers as rubber does w age , they reduce the volume of fluid and do not flex under pressure as FJCamper noticed"

Braided lines are always a no win argument as there are advantages to both. I would use it where there is chafing other wise there are other equally good options out there that allow better monitoring of the lines condition.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I almost forgot: while braided line does have the ability to move/flex within a certain limit but like tube or pipe there is a limit to how tight the bend can be. In the case of braided line the hose pretty much jams at the maximum bend limit rather than collapse/fold/tear as formed pipe or tube would do. Again, there are +/- to its use.

Lee