"Square" Engine Theory

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hotrodsurplus
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by hotrodsurplus »

IMO 5.7" is a non-starter for all but sustained high-RPM race engines where the width of the package isn't an issue.
I'm going to challenge that statement (in a friendly way mind you). For the sake of this, I'm going to leave the engine width issue out.

A 5.7" rod on a 74mm crank works out to pretty much the exact rod ratio of a stock-rod VW Type I: almost 2:1. A stock stroke/rod engine is a far more dynamic package than for just a high-speed engine.

I agree that we probably make a bit too much out of rod ratio, but the Type I's performance record is a hell of an endorsement for that rod ratio. It offers better detonation resistance, increases piston dwell time at TDC for a more thorough burn, and makes better use of smaller ports, and we all know that smaller ports are very good at building velocity. Yes, technically the longer rod moves the power band up, but it's not as big of a jump as people think and the torque increase across the rest of the range really helps. And in a VW's case, the detonation resistance of a greater rod ratio is certainly welcome.

A lesser rod ratio on the other hand has the net effect of raising the effective and dynamic compression ratio. The simplest way to deal with the greater effective and dynamic CR is to lower the static CR, and just about every way reduces an engine's efficiency. There are several ways to reduce static CR: increase the deck, which reduces quench properties and makes the cylinder more detonation prone; increase the chamber volume, which increases the surface:volume ratio, which theoretically increases fuel consumption. Since it takes longer for the flame front to traverse a larger chamber, large-chamber engines require more advanced ignition timing, which essentially makes the engine fight itself on the late power stroke and early combustion incident. Of course you could have a custom piston made with a properly designed dish that doesn't diminish the chamber's efficiency; however, now we're talking fairly big bucks for probably no mileage gain, which is the point of this bench race (and potentially an engine).

Or you could just preserve the already-good rod ratio and make the rest of the engine very super-duper efficient. And a 5.7 rod on a 74 stroke is a pretty good way to do that.

I know there was a guy in this industry who had nothing good to say about higher rod ratios even though stock engines had them. The irony is that he had nothing but praise for stock stroke/rod TI engines, which had said high rod ratios. My experience is that the ACVW industry is the only one who doesn't go out of its way to optimize rod ratio.

I'm not looking for a fight; I just want to hear other perspectives on this.
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Piledriver
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by Piledriver »

Most of the big names in racing consider the "perfect rod length/ratio" to be the one that fits in the engine :lol:

Mind, high RPM endurance engines always use the longest rod that can be fit, but this is largely to reduce cylinder side loads and perhaps make the most of the possibly restricted intake.

Minor quibble: high rod ratios spend more time at TDC, and are considered MORE susceptible to det than a "short rod" motor.
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spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

hotrodsurplus wrote:A 5.7" rod on a 74mm crank works out to pretty much the exact rod ratio of a stock-rod VW Type I: almost 2:1. A stock stroke/rod engine is a far more dynamic package than for just a high-speed engine.
Piledriver wrote:Most of the big names in racing consider the "perfect rod length/ratio" to be the one that fits in the engine :lol:
These two statements in concert combined with the seller's (CB Performance) claim that the 5.7" Chevy rods will fit up to a 76mm crank without case clearancing seems to lend credence to the combination.

I'm still not sure what all would be involved in making the 1.1" wider fit. People install longer cranks all the time much wider than 76mm, how do they compensate?
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Piledriver
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by Piledriver »

spectre6000 wrote: I'm still not sure what all would be involved in making the 1.1" wider fit. People install longer cranks all the time much wider than 76mm, how do they compensate?

They use a non-stock piston with a shorter pin height.

I'm still trying to figure out what in my earlier posts was "irrelevant", Marc, rereading it was all 100% on topic and correct.
I've been studying and playing with high mileage stuff longer than most.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

This is clearly a high mpg build, and the square theory part was more or less satisfied on my part early on.

My plan for this engine is for it to go in a Ghia, but I have a Beetle that will probably receive a duplicate engine should it work out as intended. The current strategy (subject to change) is to go with all new parts insofar as they are available new (the only exception I can think of are the heads).

-Aluminum Type 1 case (although I did just find a Type 4 case for $40 that I might have to look into) for durability
-Full flow
-76mm crank
-Hydraulic lifters for a light maintenance schedule
-Cam ground for short duration, high lift, high acceleration (although as previously stated I've toyed with Atkinson/Miller Cycle timing)
-77mm Nickies piston/cylinder set
-Jury is out on the rods, but I'm leaning toward the 5.7" Chevy journals if fitting the thing in the car isn't too much of an issue
-1300dp heads w/ polished ports
-SVDA distributor
-Haven't decided on carburetion yet, but dual carbs are pretty much assured
-Doghouse cooling tin
-Merged exhaust
-Freeway Flyer trans
-All else will be some quality aftermarket approaching stock or slightly upgraded stock
-A/C is a must

I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but what's the consensus on this combo? What advice do those with high mileage experience and expertise have to give? I'm still fairly new at this, and recognize that I have a lot to learn from this crowd.
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Marc
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by Marc »

spectre6000 wrote: I...recognize that I have a lot to learn...
Understatement of the year ;)
Type I/IV/Wasserboxer hybrids are possible, but that's for the advanced class. You should have at least a few dozen successful "normal"-combination builds under your belt before undertaking something that bizarre. By then you might even be ready to consider Piledriver's Honda piston suggestion ;)
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hotrodsurplus
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by hotrodsurplus »

Marc wrote:By then you might even be ready to consider Piledriver's Honda piston suggestion ;)
I know you're pulling Piledriver's chain a bit, but his is a hell of an idea (to use smaller pistons made for Hondas). I don't know the pin diameter, but the pistons or con rod can both be bushed to adapt them to a smaller pin. Of course cylinder availability might be touchy in the smaller bores, but there are ways to get around that issue.

Custom-manufactured pistons withstanding (which are incredibly expensive), the pistons available to the VW world are marginal. You're stuck with thin crowns so you can't have them machined for properly-shaped dishes, which this industry should've demanded YEARS ago. I work with several people who use other-brand parts to build engines for specific purposes. One was a 540-or-so inch Cadillac that used Ford 460 pistons (if memory serves...). Chrysler 440 connecting rods were real common swaps in real Chrysler engines (354s and 392s). The story that Hot Rod magazine did, The 350 that Chevrolet Should Have Built used Ford 300 (inline six) connecting rods on a small-journal 327 crank in a 400 block. Small-block Chevrolet heads find their way on later GM four-banger blocks and one guy cut one up to convert a Model A to overhead valves. Hell, the small-journal Chevrolet rod (as well as the Capri rod, Porsche rod, and Rabbit rods [ :| ] have found their way into countless VW engines. I know the 88mm piston came from another car (I've heard a .060"-overbore Corvair 3.4375 piston) and I remember hearing that the 92 was something similar.

My point? Someone out there colored outside the lines and made these combinations popular. And they were partially popular because of their affordability. Maybe not for this build, but I think the Honda-piston idea is bitchin'. Simply by the demand and numbers of performance pistons available, they're incredibly affordable.

[/rant] :)
spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

I'm notorious for jumping off the deep end. I'd rather not waste the time and money doing something I know I can do. If it's not a challenge it's simply not fun. I have a 40 horse that will be rebuilt before I'm able to start ordering parts for this project, so I'll have basic construction techniques under my belt by then.
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Piledriver
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by Piledriver »

The main advantages of rebored jugs is that a used, heat cycled German cylinder, rebored by RIMCO or such, are FAR better than anything you can buy short of Nickies, including (IMHO) a NOS German P&L set.

In other words, they are better than new, done properly.

One can also get thin low tension rings (or anything you want) for the Honda pistons, and they should make excellent stroker pistons.

The pins generally are 20 or 22mm. Huge variety...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
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EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

Just to make sure I'm following the same plot, are you saying that a Honda cylinder is a direct plug-and-play alternative to the made-for-VW cylinders or is there some machining involved in getting it to work correctly?
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Piledriver
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

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spectre6000 wrote:Just to make sure I'm following the same plot, are you saying that a Honda cylinder is a direct plug-and-play alternative to the made-for-VW cylinders or is there some machining involved in getting it to work correctly?
Nononononono. Wrong movie.

The idea is to find decent used genuine VW jugs, made by elves in the olde days.

Have those rebored/honed by a competent VW machinist (RIMCO), with a torque plate, to the required slight oversize to match the chosen pistons and ringset.

The heat cycling and time ages the iron... they will be better than new.

You could buy a set of brazilian P&C for about what that will cost to bore the jugs alone... just raising a possibility.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

piledriver wrote:...made by elves in the olde days.
:lol:

I said cylinder, I meant piston. There is some machining of the cylinder to fit the piston, that's what I was trying to figure out.

I believe someone mentioned earlier that the Nickies cylinders shed much more heat than cast iron, and the heat losses would reduce overall efficiency. I'd like to present this idea to the community of greater minds: Part of a comprehensive strategy to achieve high mpg figures is to run the engine at a lower RPM; this is clearly detrimental to an air cooled engine by virtue of lower fan speeds, rectifiable in part by manipulation of pulley ratios; loading the pulley ratios as such would add more load to the engine, and while the mechanical advantage is still in favor of this approach it's not the complete answer; another way to mitigate temperature concerns that may arise through operating at a lower RPM would be to alter the cylinder material to one that radiates heat better, ergo Nickies. I'm thinking that a combination of increased fan speed and better head shedding alloys in the cylinders combined with VW's recommended operating range of 2500-4000 RPM (re: photo below of a "NOS" Ghia tachometer) should allow for a lower "safe" RPM band. That said, I don't know that 2500 is safe to run all day long in a stock engine, but it might very well be with the above combination; I won't know until I have some test data. The Nickies piston and cylinder set is expensive, and I may be wrong about the above scenario, but if they shed heat too well I think it will be easier to raise the engine temp than to lower it via further manipulation of pulley ratios (custom pulleys aren't terribly difficult/expensive).

Image
Last edited by spectre6000 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bigmeat
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by bigmeat »

Remember whatever you decided to do you need to have everthing balanced seperately the have it balanced as a unit. Flywheel clutch and pulley.

spectre6000
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by spectre6000 »

Was that a good idea and everyone is stunned silent or a bad idea and everyone has given up trying to beat their heads against a wall?
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Re: "Square" Engine Theory

Post by Piledriver »

Balancing is important, as is cooling, and the concept of increasing the cooling and reducing fan speed is quite reasonable, the fan doesn't draw that much power at lower revs.

Another admittedly half baked idea is use a fan clutch (like for an old school York AC compressor) to drive the fan as needed.

Saw an interes6ing post on the WBX forum, pics of the Limbach aircraft oxyboxer heads, note the chambers...
The twin plugs may also be worth a reasonable efficiency boost.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 5&start=68

A 4 cylinder Megasquirt setup can very likely use "rotary" mode to do dual plug control with mappable trailing plug timing.
(Would be waste spark w/4 DIS or 2 EDIS coils)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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